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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

olympic car crash

87 replies

lonelywater · 05/08/2024 16:35

I thought after the WPATH debacle that would blow the lid off, once and for all, gender woo having any further influence in medical matters. Do we think the IOC will simply try to style this out with "nothing to see here" or will radical change be a result? No idea myself as there seems to be still far too many nutters in positions of power.

OP posts:
Abhannmor · 05/08/2024 21:47

lonelywater · 05/08/2024 16:55

nothing will change during these games-that would be the equivalent of erecting a ten foot high pink neon sign over the Eiffel Tower saying "we are batshit mentalists who dont know our arse from our elbow". Best outcome is they realise this looks dreadful, isn't going away and will need sorting by people who know what the fuck they are talking about. I suspect this will need Coe to be elected in place of Bach, who seems completely out of his depth, to be charitable.

Ha...Great post. Guessing you're an Alan Partridge fan 😂 'We are batshit mentalists' indeed!

kiterunning · 05/08/2024 21:55

@LaeralSilverhand
I didn't mean that the rest of the Olympics haven't been fantastic - especially tonight.
This could well be a turning point though.

EatMoreFibre · 05/08/2024 22:07

I have a headache so my kindness level are zero at the moment. Here are my unedited opinions:

The IOC is a boys' club. They will double down and the cheats will celebrate and be cheered by the majority

Most journalists are spineless, ignorant and too gormless to even think of getting to the bottom of anything let alone holding the powerful to account. Honestly the calibre of journalism in the last decade or so is one of the biggest disappointments of my adult life.

Most people seem to be thick. Sorry to be undiplomatic but I am astonished at the amount of people that faced with what has been published in the last week still say "she has a vagina, she is a woman, it's all Russian propaganda". The public should be in uproar about this but most people are like "poor Imane, she is having such a hard time being picked on by the evil racist terfs".

My family will keep on calling me a bigot, laughing at my "hobby horse", being embarrassed at me and asking me why can't I accept the truth.

<eyes a second dose of paracetamol>

GeorgeOrwellsTurningGrave · 05/08/2024 22:33

I hear you, @EatMoreFibre and second it. 💐

ArabellaScott · 05/08/2024 22:33

Agree, Fibre. Alas.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 05/08/2024 22:37

Truthlikeness · 05/08/2024 21:38

I agree - I think it's unlikely women boxers have higher than average testosterone levels, unless someone has actually done a study (and I'm sure we would have heard of that) or he means the male kind of women.

There was one study that showed that male elite athletes often have lower than normal levels of testosterone - I think the demands of training were cited as one possible reason so it's possible the same is true for women.

No study that I know of. Someone did post a link in one of these threads to a study of elite female soldiers with levels of physical training similar to that of elite athletes - same T levels as other women.

UtopiaPlanitia · 05/08/2024 23:18

EatMoreFibre · 05/08/2024 22:07

I have a headache so my kindness level are zero at the moment. Here are my unedited opinions:

The IOC is a boys' club. They will double down and the cheats will celebrate and be cheered by the majority

Most journalists are spineless, ignorant and too gormless to even think of getting to the bottom of anything let alone holding the powerful to account. Honestly the calibre of journalism in the last decade or so is one of the biggest disappointments of my adult life.

Most people seem to be thick. Sorry to be undiplomatic but I am astonished at the amount of people that faced with what has been published in the last week still say "she has a vagina, she is a woman, it's all Russian propaganda". The public should be in uproar about this but most people are like "poor Imane, she is having such a hard time being picked on by the evil racist terfs".

My family will keep on calling me a bigot, laughing at my "hobby horse", being embarrassed at me and asking me why can't I accept the truth.

<eyes a second dose of paracetamol>

Sorry to be undiplomatic but I am astonished at the amount of people that faced with what has been published in the last week still say "she has a vagina, she is a woman, it's all Russian propaganda".

I agree. One of the IOC officials questioned today by journalists (who were asking for more information as to the certification/validity of the labs who carried out the sex testing on the two boxers in question) in his reply actually mentioned a rumour about the IBA only testing one of the boxers after a Russian opponent was beaten.

This particular rumour was disproven, with information from publicly available boxing tournament records, 2 days ago here on a couple of MN threads discussing this topic, and also on sites like Reduxx and Ovarit.

This rumour appears to have been generated and spread on social media and it worries me that an IOC official would be using info of this calibre to defend IOC policy.

SammyScrounge · 06/08/2024 03:04

PepeParapluie · 05/08/2024 16:49

I’m not expecting a u-turn this games. I’m thinking the best we can maybe hope for is that they quietly change the rules before the next games. I’m not convinced they will though.

If they don",t men will know that they can get away.with Self ID and they will swamp the women's sports until there is.no point in real women entering anything at all.

Catsmere · 06/08/2024 06:08

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2024 19:59

What hasn't really been discussed, is that if it's done by passport, then any 'transwoman' could be boxing women.

Yes, agree that is the elephant in the room here.

Like Fallon Fox, gleefully breaking women's skulls.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 06:42

OvaHere · 05/08/2024 18:47

I was surprised to discover Semenya admitted to having testicles last year. Yet apparently plenty of people still think he's female.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/olympic-champion-internal-testicles-dont-make-me-less-of-a-woman/ar-AA1jAnp4

And it is still discordant to see people refer to Semenya as ‘she’ when they even have admitted this.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 07:16

Drfosters · 05/08/2024 21:35

I agree they have done that but it makes no sense. The IoC should set the criteria at the top. Why should different sports have different rules? They should formally set the rules of engagement for the different catergories and why they have created those categories. E.g the purpose of catergorising by sex is to achieve XYZ, the purpose of us having weight catergories is to achieve XYZ. ( in effect they do this for he Paralympic’s in order to catergorise different impediments to compete against each other). If they want to swap to gender not sex they need to explain the purpose of the category and what it is trying to achieve. Only once you have that high level reasoning can you then devise the appropriate OBJECTIVE test to put people into the catergories. Nothing will change whatsoever until they do this. It will just be lots of name calling and arguing. Just terrible leadership quite frankly.

Edited

From what I gather, from the Nature article I keep posting on all the threads (but am on my phone so can’t access it to post) is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the late 90s they removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.

Then in early 00s they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

Then in 2015, a campaign group including Ivy/Mckinnon and Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

The IOC reacts by announcing a review. The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation.

The announcement by Budgett from IOC was along the line of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion at all costs is our aim.’

That is where we are now.

Drfosters · 06/08/2024 08:50

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 07:16

From what I gather, from the Nature article I keep posting on all the threads (but am on my phone so can’t access it to post) is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the late 90s they removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.

Then in early 00s they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

Then in 2015, a campaign group including Ivy/Mckinnon and Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

The IOC reacts by announcing a review. The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation.

The announcement by Budgett from IOC was along the line of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion at all costs is our aim.’

That is where we are now.

then there is no point is everyone arguing over is this a man or not, if the answer is actually irrelevant.

the argument should be over that top line of 1) what the point of the olympics are 2) what is the categorisation designed to achieve?

if inclusion is the point, then actually what is the point of any catergorisation at all. Why not just have 1 category for each sport? Do away with sex, weight, different swim strokes. Just have best at each sport

BabaYagasHouse · 06/08/2024 09:01

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 07:16

From what I gather, from the Nature article I keep posting on all the threads (but am on my phone so can’t access it to post) is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the late 90s they removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.

Then in early 00s they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

Then in 2015, a campaign group including Ivy/Mckinnon and Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

The IOC reacts by announcing a review. The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation.

The announcement by Budgett from IOC was along the line of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion at all costs is our aim.’

That is where we are now.

Thank you for this clear summary

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 06/08/2024 10:14

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 06:42

And it is still discordant to see people refer to Semenya as ‘she’ when they even have admitted this.

Why are you using "they"?

NoBinturongsHereMate · 06/08/2024 10:15

Drfosters · 06/08/2024 08:50

then there is no point is everyone arguing over is this a man or not, if the answer is actually irrelevant.

the argument should be over that top line of 1) what the point of the olympics are 2) what is the categorisation designed to achieve?

if inclusion is the point, then actually what is the point of any catergorisation at all. Why not just have 1 category for each sport? Do away with sex, weight, different swim strokes. Just have best at each sport

How divisive. They should just have one category, full stop. Chuck them all in a stadium together and see who wins sport.

Ignore the swimmers whinging that they're at a competitive disadvantage without water, and the hurdlers saying they feel 'unsafe' around the javelin throwers. Inclusion for all!

Cailleach1 · 06/08/2024 10:21

And the shot putters have to practise away from others, so they don’t hit them. Segregation!

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 10:26

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 06/08/2024 10:14

Why are you using "they"?

Because every so often MN deletes posts for wrong pronouns. I choose to not lose my posts.

I believe I am very clear when I use ‘male’ and I don’t believe that many posters would complain that I am kind. I don’t give a fuck about being kind about discussing Semenya.

And this morning, I also am not going to get into another discussion about people telling me how to describe these male athletes. I feel I have fuck else for 4 or 5 days.

MarieDeGournay · 06/08/2024 10:47

I agree that it is frustrating to see the same things over and over and over again after they've been refuted using reliable sources, UtopiaPlanitia.

The same thing has happened with the IBA - I've posted on a number of threads about their proven corruption, match-fixing, and the fact that they are so close to Russia that calling the 'Russian-backed' isn't far wrong, and they were financed by Gazprom. Even the IBA in its current form acknowledges that they were deeply corrupt, they commissioned their own review, the McLaren Report, in an attempt to 'turn a corner' [hmmmm.. ]
But the IBA good/IOC bad thing keeps cropping up..

There is doubt about the famous tests on Khelif and Lin; in the IBA news conference yesterday, one of them said they were testosterone tests, the other said they chromosome tests; who did the testing? it wasn't the WADA, who only test for drugs; is the IBA really so afraid of breaching the GDPR ..? These questions are valid. They are also irrelevant to the overall issue of men in women's sports, but are being used very effectively to shut down criticism of the IOC.
The IBA got one thing right: people with XY chromosomes are not eligible to participate in women's boxing, and they are to be praised for that. They raised doubts about the two boxers in question, they informed the IOC of their doubts, and that should have been enough to make the IOC take action before this situation developed.

But relying heavily on the credentials of the IBA and their testing regime is not a great idea, it weakens the argument, and it's frustrating when posters keep referring to the IBA as if they are the good guys.

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 06/08/2024 10:50

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 10:26

Because every so often MN deletes posts for wrong pronouns. I choose to not lose my posts.

I believe I am very clear when I use ‘male’ and I don’t believe that many posters would complain that I am kind. I don’t give a fuck about being kind about discussing Semenya.

And this morning, I also am not going to get into another discussion about people telling me how to describe these male athletes. I feel I have fuck else for 4 or 5 days.

Fair enough 😄 Don't worry, I am not the kindness police 😉

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 10:53

MarieDeGournay · 06/08/2024 10:47

I agree that it is frustrating to see the same things over and over and over again after they've been refuted using reliable sources, UtopiaPlanitia.

The same thing has happened with the IBA - I've posted on a number of threads about their proven corruption, match-fixing, and the fact that they are so close to Russia that calling the 'Russian-backed' isn't far wrong, and they were financed by Gazprom. Even the IBA in its current form acknowledges that they were deeply corrupt, they commissioned their own review, the McLaren Report, in an attempt to 'turn a corner' [hmmmm.. ]
But the IBA good/IOC bad thing keeps cropping up..

There is doubt about the famous tests on Khelif and Lin; in the IBA news conference yesterday, one of them said they were testosterone tests, the other said they chromosome tests; who did the testing? it wasn't the WADA, who only test for drugs; is the IBA really so afraid of breaching the GDPR ..? These questions are valid. They are also irrelevant to the overall issue of men in women's sports, but are being used very effectively to shut down criticism of the IOC.
The IBA got one thing right: people with XY chromosomes are not eligible to participate in women's boxing, and they are to be praised for that. They raised doubts about the two boxers in question, they informed the IOC of their doubts, and that should have been enough to make the IOC take action before this situation developed.

But relying heavily on the credentials of the IBA and their testing regime is not a great idea, it weakens the argument, and it's frustrating when posters keep referring to the IBA as if they are the good guys.

In this, I believe the IVF/gynacologist who advised the ultimate decision and is the president of the European boxing federation. He said chromosome test.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 10:59

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 06/08/2024 10:50

Fair enough 😄 Don't worry, I am not the kindness police 😉

I know you aren’t penguin. But, I have long tortured my words to prevent deletions on Mn. It makes for very long sentences often as I strive for clarity. It will take me a long time to drop the habit because I also don’t have confidence that the mod policy that allows it in certain uses will remain either.

I cannot let the habit drop.

Justwrong68 · 06/08/2024 11:03

There's the uproar about other testing being reliably done in the athletes native country, rather than done by the IOC. So if all testing is done by IOC in future there should be a change, especially if cheek swabs can be reintroduced

Snowypeaks · 06/08/2024 11:04

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 10:59

I know you aren’t penguin. But, I have long tortured my words to prevent deletions on Mn. It makes for very long sentences often as I strive for clarity. It will take me a long time to drop the habit because I also don’t have confidence that the mod policy that allows it in certain uses will remain either.

I cannot let the habit drop.

If I put as much effort into my posts and did as much research as you do, I think I would do the same. It would be awful to have all that work disappear in a puff of smoke.
I nearly always use sexed pronouns because I like to live dangerously! Woohoo!🏇⛷🏄

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 06/08/2024 11:20

@MarieDeGournay WADA do not do testing themselves, they are the overseeing body who approves laboratories to test samples. The IBA stating the labs were WADA certified was just to show these were serious laboratories not a back street operation. They never said WADA did the testing.

UtopiaPlanitia · 06/08/2024 13:03

I came across an interesting article from an Olympic sports journalist and I’m posting it on relevant threads:

The International Olympic Committee, which is overseeing Paris 2024 boxing, opted to base eligibility on an athlete’s passport. IBA officials suggested Monday that missed the mark, noting that as of June 2023, more than a year before these Paris Games, the IOC knew about the New Delhi DQs…

3 Wire Sports has seen the test results and a June 5, 2023 IBA letter to the IOC that says tests of Khelif, one in New Delhi, a prior test in Istanbul at the 2022 world championships, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes.”’

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy

Paris 2024 women's boxing stirs so much emotion -- can facts take back the moment? | 3 Wire Sports

PARIS – If they had been running the tournament here at the Paris Games, International Boxing Assn. officials said Monday, the Algerian and Chinese Taipei fighters now in the medal rounds in women’s boxing, both figuring in a worldwide controversy, wou...

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy