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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

1000 replies

Signalbox · 03/08/2024 10:07

A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion.

Thread 1 can be found here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” | Mumsnet

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men? *”Two athletes competing at...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

OP posts:
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96
OvaHere · 03/08/2024 16:14

Keepingcosy · 03/08/2024 15:45

Les Dennis has apologised on the assertion Khelif is male. The Daily Mail shows Khelif as a little girl (not as a post pubescent teen interestingly). No one is saying Khelif has anything in common with Caster Semenya.

I don't understand because my eyes are seeing post pubescent males? They both failed gender tests previously. I don't understand tbh. Are the media not reporting properly or is there a genuine lack of information about what is going on?

I'm sure there are pictures of Khelif in girls clothing. Quite often in poorer countries small children with DSDs are not accurately tested until puberty and maybe not even then. Although I suspect by puberty everyone realises the mistake whether they go to a specialist doctor or not.

This is why unscrupulous sports scouts have sought out these young males with DSDs from developing countries because they do mistakenly have documents that state they are female. It creates the perfect loophole and there's so much money to be made from them.

The IOC created this loophole by ending cheek swab sex testing in 1999.

It all comes at the expense of women and girls who are not even so much as an afterthought in all this.

BettyBooper · 03/08/2024 16:14

At this point, I honestly think that even if tests were carried out live on TV and they came back XY, people would still argue that these men are women.

I genuinely don't know what evidence would actually be accepted.

protectourchildren · 03/08/2024 16:18

Back in the real world, everyone can see the difference and advantage of a male vs female body with greater reach, shoulder to hip ratio etc.

It's an interesting exploration of unaccountable over funded organizations trying to brainwash everyone, however. Very concerning.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/08/2024 16:18

BettyBooper · 03/08/2024 16:14

At this point, I honestly think that even if tests were carried out live on TV and they came back XY, people would still argue that these men are women.

I genuinely don't know what evidence would actually be accepted.

Only unhinged people, and they can be ignored

lonelywater · 03/08/2024 16:20

BettyBooper · 03/08/2024 16:14

At this point, I honestly think that even if tests were carried out live on TV and they came back XY, people would still argue that these men are women.

I genuinely don't know what evidence would actually be accepted.

it wouldn't. this is a religious movement with strict articles of faith (TWAW etc). These people believe things which are literally unknowable, therefore unprovable. In which case evidence is irrelevant, I have spent far too much time on twitter trying to argue that black is black, but they simply won't have it. Nutters.

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 03/08/2024 16:20

It was so telling, that by puberty Semenya was one of the lads.

I’m guessing by their appearance in mufti, that these chaps were too. They are clearly very comfortable in their own skin.

BettyBooper · 03/08/2024 16:22

lonelywater · 03/08/2024 16:20

it wouldn't. this is a religious movement with strict articles of faith (TWAW etc). These people believe things which are literally unknowable, therefore unprovable. In which case evidence is irrelevant, I have spent far too much time on twitter trying to argue that black is black, but they simply won't have it. Nutters.

For sure. Twitter is full of the crazy.

Motorina · 03/08/2024 16:22

Am I right in thinking the next match is starting shortly? If so, is anyone watching? Doesn't appear to be on BBC.

BettyBooper · 03/08/2024 16:24

lonelywater · 03/08/2024 16:20

it wouldn't. this is a religious movement with strict articles of faith (TWAW etc). These people believe things which are literally unknowable, therefore unprovable. In which case evidence is irrelevant, I have spent far too much time on twitter trying to argue that black is black, but they simply won't have it. Nutters.

For sure. Twitter is full of the crazy.

Unfortunately, so many people are listening to this shite and MSM isn't helping!

Mollyollydolly · 03/08/2024 16:24

I've not been on here much the last few days been posting endlessly on twitter against disinformation. My head is reeling from it all. I don't understand how twitter works, but the last few days have been insane. Is it China, Russia, the IOC buying bots? It's been like an avalanche of madness, far, far worse than usual. Genuinely interested to understand how it works.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2024 16:29

protectourchildren · 03/08/2024 16:00

They appear to be. In one day I heard the bbc say as statements of fact they are women with high testosterone - no evidence given, they are women who are intersex (a discriminatory term people with dsds have repeatedly asked broadcasters not to use) again no evidence given (unsurprisingly as 'intersex' is not a thing) and they are 'not trans' again no evidence given for this 'fact'.

They did not refer to the publicly available statements from IBA or ioc nor apply any journalistic scrutiny of the vast gulf between the two. So yes, I'm assuming just made up to whatever suits their agenda?

Edited

I think their trick is to quote someone else
then not discuss it. Cowardly.

Today NBC Radio 5 News 12 o’clock I heard. About 3 mins in.

‘The head of the IOC, Thomas Bach, has defended the decision to allow two boxers to compete in women’s events even though they were disqualified from last year’s world championship. Ting and Kaleif both won their bouts to progress to the second round. There had been objections to allowing them to compete but Mr Bach said he wouldn’t take part in a politically motivated culture war or base decisions on a poll on social media.’
“Some who want to own definition of who is a woman, and there I can only invite them to come up with a scientific base, a new definition of who is a woman, and how someone who has been born, raised, competed and having a passport as a woman cannot be considered a woman.”

‘Thomas Bach of the IOC.‘

biddyboo · 03/08/2024 16:29

Motorina · 03/08/2024 16:22

Am I right in thinking the next match is starting shortly? If so, is anyone watching? Doesn't appear to be on BBC.

I don't think it's on BBC. Not sure about elsewhere .I'm following Oliver Brown's live stream on Telegraph Sport (not behind the paywall).

HipTightOnions · 03/08/2024 16:30

Oddly, BBC are showing the same thing (cycling) on both their channels.

Keepingcosy · 03/08/2024 16:30

ChaChaChooey · 03/08/2024 16:07

They aren’t reporting properly.

A significant number of successful DSD (male) athletes have a condition called 5ARD which means they look vaguely female at birth but at puberty it becomes obvious a mistake was made. In some parts of the world 5ARD is colloquially known as ‘Penis at 12’.

Any photos of small child with this condition are likely to show them dressed as girls, because they were wrongly assumed to be girls until puberty kick started their testicular growth.

Thank you for this.

I'm checking Fair Play on twitter, they are adamant that Khelif is male, as are many GC activists and I'm assuming they are more informed than most.

Seeing as it's not exactly controversial to point out the reality of this I e. Caster Semenya, why isn't this being discussed in the mainstream media? Why has running ruled out Semenya but boxing hasn't ruled out these athletes who it appears obvious have undergone male puberty and have similar condition?

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 03/08/2024 16:31

I wonder if BBC are intentionally not showing it so they don't have to discuss it (and risk breaking the IOC reporting regs) 🤔

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2024 16:32

I don't think the purpose of BBC Verify was upholding the truth.

This. They're basically Orwellian.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 03/08/2024 16:32

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 03/08/2024 16:13

New uneducated argument of today is "she's XXY" 🙄

Ah yes, klinefelters - that condition that results in babies who are registered as male but become feminised at puberty. That matches every fact that is known about these competitors! /s
Smh.

Reminds me of an interesting thread from 2018 that had both Barracker and Bowlofbabelfish.

The idea that all of these disparate conditions somehow are part of a community is a myth, I think.

There's no reason really why a woman with Turner's syndrome should feel she has any commonality with a man who has Klinefelters. They are completely different conditions affecting two different sexes, with entirely different health implications.

Dragging them under the same banner simply because they are disorders of sex development is as pointless as telling me my cervical smear gives me commonality with a man's prostate exam because they both involve stuff below the waist.

The term intersex is being used as political collateral by those with an agenda, and not only does it make no sense, it isn't with the consent of the people it relates to.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3400673-intersex-and-trans

Somewhat in line with the discussion there, there's a nuanced argument for not including Klinefelter fully in the category of DSDs.

One of the most common chromosomal abnormalities is found in XXY Klinefelter syndrome (NHS, 2019). Whilst technically not a DSD, this condition illustrates the female-male interface further. Males who are born with an extra copy of the X chromosome develop small testes, shortage of testosterone, low muscle mass and enlargement of breast tissue (gynaecomastia). While typically infertile, some men with Klinefelter are fertile; they produce sperm and father children. When a male body fails to fully masculinise, it does not develop reproductively into a fully female body instead, because the male and female pathways are not interchangeable.

https://can-sg.org/frequently-asked-questions/what-are-differences-disorders-of-sex-development-or-intersex-conditions/

What are Differences/Disorders of Sex Development (or intersex conditions)?

If fetal tissues were to receive erroneous signals at an early stage, or fail to receive appropriate ones, reproductive development could halt, or attempt to proceed down the opposite sex pathway. …

https://can-sg.org/frequently-asked-questions/what-are-differences-disorders-of-sex-development-or-intersex-conditions

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/08/2024 16:33

According to the Telegraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/03/boxing-paris-2024-live-imane-khelif-v-anna-luca-hamori-66kg/#1722698503294

"Chaos at North Paris Arena ahead of Imane Khelif’s second fight of these Olympics, Anna Luca Hamori of Hungary.
Journalists are sitting on stairs, with the press tribune long having filled. You can understand the anticipation: the story of the Algerian boxer, who was thrown out of last year’s world championship for failing a sex test, has gone global since the 25-year-old forced Italy’s Angela Carini to surrender within just 46 seconds. "

This story isn't dying down

Live: Gender-row boxer Imane Khelif faces Anna Luca Hamori at Olympics

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/03/boxing-paris-2024-live-imane-khelif-v-anna-luca-hamori-66kg#1722698503294

NeartoNewquay · 03/08/2024 16:35

ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2024 16:29

I think their trick is to quote someone else
then not discuss it. Cowardly.

Today NBC Radio 5 News 12 o’clock I heard. About 3 mins in.

‘The head of the IOC, Thomas Bach, has defended the decision to allow two boxers to compete in women’s events even though they were disqualified from last year’s world championship. Ting and Kaleif both won their bouts to progress to the second round. There had been objections to allowing them to compete but Mr Bach said he wouldn’t take part in a politically motivated culture war or base decisions on a poll on social media.’
“Some who want to own definition of who is a woman, and there I can only invite them to come up with a scientific base, a new definition of who is a woman, and how someone who has been born, raised, competed and having a passport as a woman cannot be considered a woman.”

‘Thomas Bach of the IOC.‘

@ScrollingLeaves - blimey that statement by Bach is truly dystopian.

He is actually saying that we need a new scientific statement of what a woman is.

This is where all the gender bollocks has brought us ...

Apparently if you "live" as a woman that's OK.

Note to the IOC - the only people that live as women have XX chromosomes.

I think they need some in-house training. GCSE biology should do it.

ticktickticktickBOOM · 03/08/2024 16:35

starting on BBC 1 now . . .

Snowypeaks · 03/08/2024 16:35

Keepingcosy · 03/08/2024 16:30

Thank you for this.

I'm checking Fair Play on twitter, they are adamant that Khelif is male, as are many GC activists and I'm assuming they are more informed than most.

Seeing as it's not exactly controversial to point out the reality of this I e. Caster Semenya, why isn't this being discussed in the mainstream media? Why has running ruled out Semenya but boxing hasn't ruled out these athletes who it appears obvious have undergone male puberty and have similar condition?

Why has running ruled out Semenya but boxing hasn't ruled out these athletes who it appears obvious have undergone male puberty and have similar condition?

Because World Athletics are in charge of running and the IOC's newly formed Boxing Unit are in charge of boxing at the Olympics. The Boxing Unit's eligibility criteria for women's events is having an F on your passport. The IBA's eligibility criteria include actually being female, which they define as having XX chromosomes.

Motorina · 03/08/2024 16:36

Given that description of the press box, there's precisely no excuse for BBC to be showing double cycling. Clearly there is interest here. Except, ohhh, the obvious.

puffyisgood · 03/08/2024 16:37

I've got it from a really dodgy looking twitter link. it's probably stealing my credit card details as we speak.

Motorina · 03/08/2024 16:38

@puffyisgood it is now on the BBC.

BettyBooper · 03/08/2024 16:38

The crowd are booing Hamori! 😳

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