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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

1000 replies

Signalbox · 03/08/2024 10:07

A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion.

Thread 1 can be found here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” | Mumsnet

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men? *”Two athletes competing at...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

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96
PepeParapluie · 05/08/2024 14:40

Hard to hear the translation of that question but I think I heard it include:

  1. why give money just to Carini even though Khelif was also upset and cried? And
  2. why not stop boxing altogether if it’s so risky

🤯🤯

yourhairiswinterfire · 05/08/2024 14:40

Journalist just said how is it fair to give Angela such a large amount of money for psychological impact, and what about the psychological impact on Khelif 🙄

quantumbutterfly · 05/08/2024 14:41

what about the menz?

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 05/08/2024 14:41

HipTightOnions · 05/08/2024 14:37

Still available here.

Thank you for this!!

NotBadConsidering · 05/08/2024 14:41

The questions are so stupid. No wonder the reports in the media are so dumb if there are the people asking questions and producing those reports. The Bible and the Koran mentioned now?!

OvaHere · 05/08/2024 14:41

PepeParapluie · 05/08/2024 14:40

Hard to hear the translation of that question but I think I heard it include:

  1. why give money just to Carini even though Khelif was also upset and cried? And
  2. why not stop boxing altogether if it’s so risky

🤯🤯

Are these people stupid?

HipTightOnions · 05/08/2024 14:42

yourhairiswinterfire · 05/08/2024 14:40

Journalist just said how is it fair to give Angela such a large amount of money for psychological impact, and what about the psychological impact on Khelif 🙄

Edited

Presumably because Carini was abiding by their rules!

NoBinturongsHereMate · 05/08/2024 14:42

Only listened to the first bit by Roberts so far. Just noting timelines while I remember --square brackets indicate my commentary.

2017 - start of one boxer's career
2018 - start of other boxer's career [missed which way round]

2020/21 - IBA formed in current structure

[2021 Tokyo Olypmics - I understand it is fairly unusual to qualify for the Olympics after only 3 or 4 years of competitive fighting]

2022 - fight where controversy first raised [so either first or second competition under current IBA governance].

Concerns raised by ringside doctors and others, so blood test/gene test carried out [unclear whether this was 1 blood test (for T perhaps?) and a second genetic one, or whether the genetic test was a clarification of his initial phrasing]. Istanbul lab - reference numbers provided for journalist verification. Results were 'inconsistent'.

They therefore wanted a second test after a time gap [Reason for needing a time gap unexplained - would make sense if T doping were suspected but not so much for a chromosome anomaly. Is blood doping still a thing? If so that might cause temporary anomalous chromosome results. Can't think of anything else that could.]

March 2023 - next competition, retest carried out. [From their previous statement Delhi lab] Clearly stated this time that it was chromosomes that made both boxers ineligible. Unable to show result of test because of medical confidentiality, but front page of test details and boxer's signatures provided. Although they can't say test results they do say what test showed ineligibililty [chromosomes], and IBA rules clearly state eligibility criteria [XX], so IBA invites people to read between the lines.

Boxers have 21 days to appeal to CAS, with IBA paying most of the cost. Lyn did not. Kehlif opened an appeal but did not proceed within the time limit - reason unknown. CAS closed case.

Both results therefore considered legally binding, so IBA forwarded details to IOC in mid 2023. Did not expect to have further IBA involvement because the Olympics is under IOC control.

Last few days, IBA announced press conference and almost immediately received papers from both Algeria and Taiwan NOCs [National Olympic Committees, I assume] refusing permission to discuss results of tests or medical information. IBA again invites people to read between the lines.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 05/08/2024 14:44

Also questioning WTAF is up with all the journalists? Are we just not interested in truth anymore? Do we just want to play progressive Olympics instead of actual sports? Do any of them have even a toe still in the reality pool? Here was me under the misapprehension that journalists were interested in truth and had some integrity 😡

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 14:45

HipTightOnions · 05/08/2024 14:37

Still available here.

Thanks for that

PepeParapluie · 05/08/2024 14:45

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 05/08/2024 14:44

Also questioning WTAF is up with all the journalists? Are we just not interested in truth anymore? Do we just want to play progressive Olympics instead of actual sports? Do any of them have even a toe still in the reality pool? Here was me under the misapprehension that journalists were interested in truth and had some integrity 😡

Agreed. This has been a wake up call for me too.

HipTightOnions · 05/08/2024 14:45

Also questioning WTAF is up with all the journalists?

This is a huge story but they are all falling over themselves to avoid it. That's not journalism.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 05/08/2024 14:50

Is that people shouting "Viva Khelif" now?

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 14:50

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 05/08/2024 14:50

Is that people shouting "Viva Khelif" now?

Certainly sounded like it

PepeParapluie · 05/08/2024 14:50

I’ve been watching since just before the speakers stopped and questions started. The message came through loud and clear they care about safety and fairness, and that the two boxers are male.

But there were some questions answered in such a way that I fear will give the press who don’t want to report this properly other ‘headlines’ or means of distracting / discrediting.

I don’t think the answer to ‘is the IBA trustworthy’ was particularly good (it was very waffly) and the stuff from the president about religion was a distraction. Things such as ‘I don’t know what’s between their legs’ and ‘artificially made women’ are unhelpful sound bites that may be picked up by any TRA-leaning journalists unfortunately.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 05/08/2024 14:51

I say people but they sound female.

I despair, this whole thing has made me really quite depressed in all honesty.

Still, that doctor was very clear, these boxers are male!

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 05/08/2024 14:53

PepeParapluie · 05/08/2024 14:50

I’ve been watching since just before the speakers stopped and questions started. The message came through loud and clear they care about safety and fairness, and that the two boxers are male.

But there were some questions answered in such a way that I fear will give the press who don’t want to report this properly other ‘headlines’ or means of distracting / discrediting.

I don’t think the answer to ‘is the IBA trustworthy’ was particularly good (it was very waffly) and the stuff from the president about religion was a distraction. Things such as ‘I don’t know what’s between their legs’ and ‘artificially made women’ are unhelpful sound bites that may be picked up by any TRA-leaning journalists unfortunately.

Agree, I'm going to be watching the press releases through my fingers I think.

I doubt they will stick to the important information - which obviously is that Khelif and Yu-ting are male. That should be headlines everywhere! I'd not put any money on that being what happens though.

ChishiyaBat · 05/08/2024 14:54

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 05/08/2024 14:51

I say people but they sound female.

I despair, this whole thing has made me really quite depressed in all honesty.

Still, that doctor was very clear, these boxers are male!

Wait what have I missed? I have a banging migraine so can't watch anything or read much right now.

CautiousLurker · 05/08/2024 14:55

yourhairiswinterfire · 05/08/2024 14:40

Journalist just said how is it fair to give Angela such a large amount of money for psychological impact, and what about the psychological impact on Khelif 🙄

Edited

Perhaps because she is a vetted and approved boxing member whilst he was banned from competing by them so is not?

another stooopid question!

ChaChaChooey · 05/08/2024 14:55

NoBinturongsHereMate · 05/08/2024 14:42

Only listened to the first bit by Roberts so far. Just noting timelines while I remember --square brackets indicate my commentary.

2017 - start of one boxer's career
2018 - start of other boxer's career [missed which way round]

2020/21 - IBA formed in current structure

[2021 Tokyo Olypmics - I understand it is fairly unusual to qualify for the Olympics after only 3 or 4 years of competitive fighting]

2022 - fight where controversy first raised [so either first or second competition under current IBA governance].

Concerns raised by ringside doctors and others, so blood test/gene test carried out [unclear whether this was 1 blood test (for T perhaps?) and a second genetic one, or whether the genetic test was a clarification of his initial phrasing]. Istanbul lab - reference numbers provided for journalist verification. Results were 'inconsistent'.

They therefore wanted a second test after a time gap [Reason for needing a time gap unexplained - would make sense if T doping were suspected but not so much for a chromosome anomaly. Is blood doping still a thing? If so that might cause temporary anomalous chromosome results. Can't think of anything else that could.]

March 2023 - next competition, retest carried out. [From their previous statement Delhi lab] Clearly stated this time that it was chromosomes that made both boxers ineligible. Unable to show result of test because of medical confidentiality, but front page of test details and boxer's signatures provided. Although they can't say test results they do say what test showed ineligibililty [chromosomes], and IBA rules clearly state eligibility criteria [XX], so IBA invites people to read between the lines.

Boxers have 21 days to appeal to CAS, with IBA paying most of the cost. Lyn did not. Kehlif opened an appeal but did not proceed within the time limit - reason unknown. CAS closed case.

Both results therefore considered legally binding, so IBA forwarded details to IOC in mid 2023. Did not expect to have further IBA involvement because the Olympics is under IOC control.

Last few days, IBA announced press conference and almost immediately received papers from both Algeria and Taiwan NOCs [National Olympic Committees, I assume] refusing permission to discuss results of tests or medical information. IBA again invites people to read between the lines.

Chromosome test could be repeated for 2 reasons, to ensure it wasn’t lab mix up or to test DNA from a different source (saliva instead of blood or vice versa).

(one of my DC has ‘acquired chimerism’, a blood test DNA sample would tell you she’s the anon German man who very kindly donated his bone marrow to save her life! Her saliva will test as her family DNA)

No reason for a wait period for DNA but if they were waiting to retest T levels it makes practical sense to take both fresh samples at one appointment.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 05/08/2024 15:00

Yes, the 2-for-1 explanation makes sense.

(And hurrah for that kind, anonymous German.)

lcakethereforeIam · 05/08/2024 15:06

Sebastian Coe's spoken up in support of biology, or at least against the current IOC cock-up

www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/05/boxing-gender-row-sebastian-coe/

https://archive.ph/dR93b unlike the controversy, this link will make the paywall go away

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 05/08/2024 15:12

ChishiyaBat · 05/08/2024 14:54

Wait what have I missed? I have a banging migraine so can't watch anything or read much right now.

After the press conference the cameras ran for a while with audio and I could hear some female voices shouting what sounded like "1.2.3! Viva (Imane?) Khelif" over and over.

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 15:26

@ChishiyaBat Flowers
Migraine here too, it's mostly hormonal but the weather isn't helping

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