Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

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A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion.

Thread 1 can be found here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

A new video from Francis Aaron has just landed.

https://x.com/FrancisAaronUK/status/1819706582986379626?t=s5xCzfKeR8LPigK2c_42OA&s=19

It's late and I'm doing these numbers from memory, so they may be a bit out but the size of the gaps should be about right.

Most women will have a level of around 2.5.or below. Those with conditions such as PCOS that increase testosterone may go up to around 5. Anything above that needs investigation for tumours, Cushings syndome etc. Normal male levels start at about 20.

(Note that UK measurements tend to be in nmol/l, whereas US ones are in, I think, ng/dl - which gives numbers approx 10 times higher than this. That can cause accidental or deliberate confusion, because if the women's levels are given in the US style and men's according to UK convention they can look similar.)

Maybe time for this graph again?

Thanks for posting that Sabrina. It is worth noting for readers that the Semenya line (5 nmol/l) and the Hubbard line (10 nmol/l) are not their natural levels, but what they were required to reduce their T levels to, to be able to compete in the womens catagories in their sports.

I'll think semanya's actual testosterone levels were measured at 20 nmol/l and 26 nmol/l

https://x.com/i/status/1819715977501941942

Video of the Vice President of the World Boxing Organisation explaining how they reported Khelif to the IOC because of the danger posed to women and the how the IOC ignored them.

Also post from Reduxx

If this is aimed at me, the meaning of my post "Is the IOC actually saying the only reason they're female is because their passport says so? And why should they "just prove it" because you'd like them to? That's their private medical information you're bandying about. They've already been thoroughly dissected" related to everybody on social media now asking for proof of Khelif's sex. There is such talk about a single person's private information. Could you handle such intrusion?

I don't think anyone should be able to keep their sex private in sport. That's basic information that a sports federation needs to know. The entire globe have no need to know the details of teste descent or uterus possession.

Did you hear the commentator in the mixed relay, mention that men were faster swimmers than women?!

NoBinturongsHereMate · Yesterday 23:09

I've seen a lot of 'but she's got a womb' in the definitely-a-woman arguments circulating. Does anyone know where this came from? It's not as if most people's internal organs are common knowledge.

I think it's emotive and people with little knowledge making false connections. He was misidentified as a girl, at birth and brought up as one, until puberty. They read that 5-ARD results in "female genitalia," not understanding that it's merely the outward appearance of external sex.

They don't know about undeveloped penii and internal testes and make a huge leap.

We've seen it on MN, over recent days.

So if Khelif is tested and found to have high testosterone, surely they will be accused of doping? And if they aren't, then any woman can take T and not be accused of it.

How are they explaining that they can tell the difference between naturally occurring high T in one woman and high doped T in another?

Have you all seen this excellent essay from the Co owner of Reduxx who first broke this story?
She adresses all the bullshit.
In arguing with those wether in bad faith or ignorant, this is all you need.
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5134185-co-owner-of-reddux-writes-a-timeline-of-the-growing-discussion-around-iba-truth-and-ioc-truth?reply=137283617

XY Athletes in Women’s Olympic Boxing: The Paris 2024 Controversy Explained (quillette.com). This is a good clear article covering both the science and the politics of the situation we now find ourselves in

Even better, from the Co owner of Reduxx who broke the story in the first instance.
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5134185-co-owner-of-reddux-writes-a-timeline-of-the-growing-discussion-around-iba-truth-and-ioc-truth?reply=137283617

Is it a respect for authority thing? I’m being told it’s a woman so it must be true?
Or virtue signalling? I must defend this poor woman?
Or superiority? I understand the difficult science that makes this male looking person female

This issue for me is that people lose all sense of rationality, all ability to weigh the information. At the first hint of disagreement it’s fingers in the ear, lalala Michael Phelps etc.

Several people answered you on the last page of the previous thread. Including @floisme:

‘You didn't address the question to me but this is what the IOC have stated:
'As with previous Olympic boxing competitions, the gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport.'
IOC 01/08/24
Full statement here:
olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement’

The link to the last page is here if you need it https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=40&reply=137264156

If you’re making a new point, that it’s unreasonable to request proof now, then I disagree. Ideally, this would have all been avoided by the IOC requiring chromosome testing as a condition of entry into the women’s category. It doesn’t and it has created this chaos by not having a clear, scientific policy.

There is serious doubt about the sex of these competitors. If it was a serious doubt about doping, there would be a test. Again the IOC could carry out a test now and put this to rest one way or another. It hasn’t. Chaos continues.

The competitors themselves could request a test to demonstrate their sex. If I was on track to win gold and there was a clamour around the world that I was doing so by cheating, I would want to prove I was not. That would be true if it was a doping accusation, but would be especially true if it was an accusation about my very sex. The fact they have no interest in proving their femaleness and/ or that they aren’t cheating speaks volumes to me and I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people to draw inferences from their silence.

In fact, Khelif said after his first fight ‘I don’t know what the truth is. I don’t care’. So there we go.

I recall reading that in some countries in which DVDs are more common, that an under-developed/indeterminate penis which then starts to develop at puberty is referred to as 'Penis at 12'

If this is aimed at me

No not aimed at you, sorry if it seemed that way. It was just intended to be a general comment in response to the idea (pushed by TRAs and others) that someone should have the right to keep their sex private under all circumstances.

Also presumably naturally high T could mean either DSD or trans. So is the female boxing now open to TW with f in their passport and no adjustments even made to T levels? Surely men will flock to this event in 4 years time if no amendment is made to the tules. It’s a wonder that more men are not competing this year. Although maybe they have been and we wouldn’t even know if they hadn’t had a previous ban. These guys have competed previously with very little fuss.

I get this in theory,but the problem is trust: it's gone. Previously,if someone said, "they've met our eligibility criteria" that would carry some weight(though less after Caster) Now, we live in TWAW (yes, I know it's not a trans issue but it is the context, even of this olympic opening ceremony) that trust is gone when another body says "failed sex testing", then a high handed "no questions" won't wash in a post-no debate world. Add to this the evidence of our eyes, the experience of the person getting punched, and the obvious (to those now heightened in seeing such things) male behaviour such as chest beating,and , personally, that shitty little smirk when trying to "comfort" the Italian. Then I'm afraid scrutiny will be heightened, and as with everything on social media, some people will be rude, obnoxious and ill informed about the details: but that doesn't change the facts, or allow someone's wants of feelings to trump those facts.

So if Khelif is tested and found to have high testosterone, surely they will be accused of doping? And if they aren't, then any woman can take T and not be accused of it

Sadly we’d just get the usual ‘plenty of women have high testosterone, get over it!’, I expect, Datun. All reason has gone out of the window now. On X I’ve even seen that excellent and completely clear graphic of testosterone levels challenged by someone who came back with a different chart that showed overlap between male and female levels, claiming that it was more accurate. They have no shame and will make any assertion, however batshit, to shore up their wild flailing around.

I'm quite taken aback by the absolute deluge of "this is a woman, you hateful people" variations across twitter, the media and even facebook. I had really thought that surely now people would see, that they'd understand what was happening. How could they look at either of those two boxers and see anything other than men?
Yet here we are. It's all been twisted.

I do wonder if Harper & chums (eg Emily Bridges) are compo face fewmin’ over males in the boxing when poor ol’ Emms has been drummed out of ladies cycling? Or if they are optimistic that this wedge will get them back in ready for next time?

Could someone please explain if intersex is a thing and if women can have Sy chromosomes