Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

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A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion.

Thread 1 can be found here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

I've seen a lot of 'but she's got a womb' in the definitely-a-woman arguments circulating. Does anyone know where this came from? It's not as if most people's internal organs are common knowledge.

I also thought 'even a pregnancy test' was interesting wording.

Yeah but that's Facebook for you. A few years ago twitter would have been the same and we'd have been treading a fine line on being able to discuss it here too. I've temporarily deactivated Facebook because of it. I can't bear it anymore.

I think at one stage somebody looked up Swyer's Syndrome.

It's literally come from someone googling women with a y chromosome and having a top result like this. They don't even open the link, just see that women with Swyers have a uterus, put 2 and 2 together and get minus 8000.

It's obvious that Khelif couldn't have Swyers. If they did more than the most basic of 'research' they'd learn that osteopenia is comorbid. And if they cracked out a dictionary, they'd learn that means brittle bones. And then maybe, just maybe if they still remembered how to make their brains engage, they'd realise that a career of world class boxing would be out of the question. And the Khelif is a man.

I suspected as much, but wondered whether people were extrapolating from some specific statement I'd missed rather than random googling.

There's a lot of debate online over whether this person is male, female, intersex, whatever. The way I see it, they are either intersex, in which case they should not be competing against females, or they are female with high testosterone which works like doping, in which case they should not be competing against females.

As you can’t be ‘female with high testosterone’ (female levels of T are well defined), and doping would be picked up in competition, so that brings us back to a male DSD.

Mine too! It's crazy! Post after post, all the same sentiment

There is no such thing as intersex in humans. There are people with Disorders of Sexual Development but they are still either male or female. Khelif has a Y chromosome and is male. He most likely has a condition like 46XY 5 Alpha Reductase. Men with that have internal testes and a micro penis. Without genetic testing, boys with this condition are often raised as girls by people who think women are just a lack of penis. He would have gone through a mostly normal male puberty and would have known he was male from around 14. He has all of the usual male advantages in sport.

If he was raised as a girl that must have been a horrific experience. I can't imagine the pain and confusion of literally being assigned the wrong sex at birth. But he shouldn't be in any sport against women, especially boxing.

But tv and film has suggested to them that tiny women who can beat up men who look like The Rock without breaking a sweat because they learned a few martial arts skills, actually exist in reality.

But do (most) women really buy that? I find it hard to credit. As PP have said, every mother knows her 13-15 year old sons are much stronger than she is.

I'll be honest, I've heard so much conflicting information and not been able to find enough official stuff to formulate an opinion on what sex this person is. But I have been able to come to the conclusion that I don't think it's right for them to compete against females.

I do think it's worth bearing in mind that people with disorders of sexual development are probably going through a pretty tough time due to this guy. They have been having their conditions discussed, misunderstood and lied about all week. And in the past organisations for people with DSDs have stressed that they are either men or women, not some sort of in between.

Genuine question, why can't you be female with high testosterone? 1 in 3 women have PCOS, which is often characterised by increased hormone levels and leads to issues, but they're still women.

Because women with high testosterone still fall way below male levels

Ahh, OK

My understanding is, and I don't think I'm wrong, is that there has never been a baby born in human history who could not be defined as male or female, DSD's nothing withstanding, on current medical knowledge. Two kinds of people: big gamete people, and small gamete people. And even though they might be born with some bits missing, or damaged (just like people can be born with only one arm or one leg), they are still recognisably male or female.

Because women with PCOS have levels of T within the normal female range - obviously at the upper end - but nowhere near male levels.

And because it's pretty shitty to bring women with PCOS into the argument.

The IOC have backed themselves into a corner. A bit like the flat earthers who proved the earth was curved.

If they want any tests that determine eligibility into the female category, they'll have to define it and have it run independently. The result will possibly make them look stupid but it will definitely fix "what a woman is" for the ioc - a whole new can of worms.

The ioc now has no choice but to hide behind patient confidentiality and double down to let misinformation help the imagination run riot. They need to let this become political as opposed to biological or they'll end up with egg on their face.

Cheeky buggers.

That's why I asked. The comment I was replying to said you can be female with high testosterone. I have PCOS and high testosterone for a woman, so I was asking clarification on that comment because surely nobody would say we're not women because of that?

• can't be female

Typo

For those who would like to give their Olympic viewing an added twist…you can now play "spot the male participants" in Female Judo, Taekwondo, wrestling and Greco-Roman wrestling...Sharron Davies has said that she has spoken to female competitors in these combat sports who have said that there are males in these female sports

I'd already heard about unease around at least one person in women's judo, and another footballer….

Incidentally, someone upthread mentioned the mixed relay. It’s very instructive to watch this 2019 race in which one woman (Poland's Justyna Święty-Ersetic) ran the last leg against 7 men. She was way out in front at the baton change and then totally obliterated by America's Michael Cherry. Funnily enough, mixed relays now keep to all-women and all-men at each leg - for just this reason. Male advantage in action (starts at about 7.50 into the race).

And linked to the comment about the IOC being backed into a corner, I've just been looking up why the men boxing tonight were not wearing protective headgear. It's apparently no longer mandatory for male boxers in the Olympics because research has indicated that concussions are more likely if the boxer wears it. However, this research was apparently only conducted on men, and there are insufficient data to know the risks for women (why does this not surprise me?). This is apparently why you see the male boxers in the men's event fighting without headgear and the boxers in the women's event wearing it.

So, women boxers may be competing in kit that actually increases risk of head injury (we just don't know) while they are being hit, especially by stronger men.

The powers-that-be are promoting the research that concussions are more likely for men if they wear headgear but in Paris, because of the rules, they now have men who have to wear headgear because they are competing in the women's event. Presumably these men are at lesser risk because their opponents are biological women so don't hit as hard.

It's hypothetical since Khelif and Yu-ting are in different weight categories but what if a biologically male boxer were to draw another male boxer in the women's competition? The IOC would be forcing these men to do something with an acknowledged risk to males.

Just watch tonight’s mixed 4 x 100 medley relay in the swimming - the women in the first (backstroke) leg were completely outpaced by the men.

This is the worst of it: let's bracket JKR with Trump and Meloni.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/imane-khelif-olympics-boxer-eligibilty-row-olympic-media-b2590769.html?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1722714414