The IOC: “ we don’t want a return to the bad old days of sex testing”

[InterrudelyUpted]

I want to give some really important context to this: it was a classic “throwing the baby out with the bathwater “ argument.

Of all the many types of DSDs that affect people born with XY chromosomes, Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) is one of the rare ones that confers no male puberty advantage at all. That’s because no matter how much testosterone may be circulating inside your endocrine system, your body is completely immune to it. People affected by this have zero male advantage, apart from possibly being a bit taller than average. They grow up looking completely female on the outside, with pretty typical female muscles and speed and strength and pelvis width and everything.

But CAIS people were used as an example of whataboutery to show the flaw in a straightforward argument that “all XY people have an advantage because of going through male puberty”.

It’s actually quite simple to separate out CAIS from other people with XY chromosomes, your genetic test comes back showing you have XY chromosomes but then they very quickly establish that you no receptors and therefore no male puberty and no male advantage. And CAIS women tend to be pretty shit at sports anyway due to the aforementioned lack of testosterone. But hey go, that’s where we are.

Can’t do sex testing in sports because it might theoretically offend a small bunch of people with a DSD who actually want to be left completely out of it anyway.

Why not? However a pee test doesn't do DNA...

I was making the argument that both of these seem more intrusive or even invasive than a lifetime, one-off cheek swab.

Wow.

All I can muster.

The sheer knowledge of mnetters never ceases to amaze me. I for one am hugely grateful for all the patient explanations of the complexities of DSDs. I do feel enormous empathy for those with these disorders. It's beginning to feel like some are being used as pawns and cashcows at the expense of women's safety in some sports.

Exactly this. They'd rather expose females to male violence than risk upsetting less than 1 percent of male population who present as female.

Males with CAIS absolutely have advantage over women. They have skeletal advantages and never have to deal with fluctuations in oestrogen or progesterone, and never have to fit their training around periods, or have to fit their periods around training or competitions. The negative impact of periods on elite women athletes is a massive area of research and a major topic of discussion in sports science, and it doesn’t apply to CAIS athletes.

They have an advantage.

So it fine for men to beat up women? Wankers.

Can you actually imagine the outcry if someone fully able-bodied wanted to compete and said they “felt disabled”… or perhaps once had a six week spell in a wheelchair after they broke their leg…

This from Ross Tucker is interesting. And sensible.

Use swabs as a ‘screening’ tool
and then if needed do further testing. This then stops the argument of ‘swabs are inaccurate’.

https://x.com/scienceofsport/status/1819332741105606960?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

Sorry, I am not able to post the text.

They take it much more seriously.

Men's competition is also taken seriously.

Which just leave women's sports which not only do they not take seriously but they have policies which purposefully harm women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_at_the_Paralympic_Games

Thepurplecar

"Does that go for the Paralympics too? No more 'bad old days' of ascertaining whether a person qualifies as disabled? No more 'bad old days' of categorising level of disability? It can all be done by how one identifies - look forward to seeing how that pans out."

I wondered that.

The whole point of elite sports is only certain people qualify, only certain people can do it.

Males, even with males with DSD, have a competitive advantage over females. Which is utterly unfair.

I heard it the other day, it was on when I woke up, I was pretty enraged all day.

It was completely anti-scientific to start. But at one point, the question arose as to whether the science had been done - and the lady said - well, it wasn't necessarily "appropriate" science.

I don’t think that is a fair picture. Think of the ‘fight or flight ‘ response:
fight = testosterone
flight = adrenaline and cortisol shooting through your body.

CAIS women have none of the testosterone giving them that oomph to power through in sport or whatever.

All they have is the cortisol and adrenaline making them anxious and jitttery in any stressful situation.

One of the reasons they tend to be pretty shit at any competitive events. And another reason why they tend to just want to live a quiet life without conflict.

Just read an interesting article that calls into question the motivations of the IBA: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/dan-wolken/2024/08/01/boxers-under-fire-olympic-gender-tests/74634233007/?utmsource=substack&utmmedium=email - not so black and white.

But I didn’t mention testosterone. They have advantages outside of testosterone like the ones I said.

Do you not agree that never having to worry about periods is an advantage to athletes? A concern no male has?

And in a study of Olympic athletes, athletes with CAIS were found to be prevalent at a rate of 1 in 1000, compared to a population rate of 1 in 20,000.

If you’re referring to that Emma Hilton tweet thread (she is a goddess!! 🙌 I love her! ) quoted earlier- it was from 2018 and you’ll see if you just read her thread that she corrects herself - those stats included PAIS men and Swyer syndrome. VERY different thing to CAIS. Emma herself will be the first to tell you that CAIS women are not represented in sport at the rate of one in 1000 because she believes in facts. And she is awesome.

Again let’s not lose sight of the point that the IOC needs to do way better at excluding men from women’s events.

No, I am not referring to Emma Hilton, because I am not on Twitter. I am referring to this study:

https://www.gimjournal.org/article/S1098-3600(21)00234-3/pdf

Just over 3000 athletes tested, and 3 were found to have CAIS, giving a prevalence of 1 in 1000 compared to a prevalence of 1 in 20,000 in general population.

I see you have ignored my point about periods. There is concern and investigation into whether certain injuries are more likely to happen during certain phases of the menstrual cycle.

Do you think it’s an advantage over your competitors to never have to worry about periods or the monthly hormonal changes associated with that?

To my mind the first sentence in that article is a lie: "Let’s make one thing very clear off the top. There isn’t a sane human being on Planet Earth who believes that a man should be boxing women in the Olympics."

Anyone who has read anything about this subject knows that there are a lot of people who think that exact thing should happen just as long as the person claims have the gender identity of a woman. I know that it is likely a DSD in the case of these 2 boxers but I find that first sentence galling when its patently untrue.

As regards the motivation of the IBA, I keep seeing people saying that they're Russian controlled etc. Why do people think that a Russian organisation is playing such 4d chess that they could predict that these 2 particular boxers would make the Olympic games and why only pick these 2?

Also if what the IBA is saying is wrong and these 2 boxers don't have XY chromosomes then release a test showing that. I am sure that if it was believed that this was all Russian nonsense that the boxers would have gotten their DNA tested in the time period since they failed the tests.

The fact they look like like men is a bit of a sticking point for the “Russian corruption” argument.

Recent data from the University of Washington, states that the number of DSD individuals in the elite athlete population is around 140 times higher than in the general female population, and their presence on the podium is even more frequent.
Maybe the IOC like the winning/world record breaking athletic prowess, and silently support having the added testosterone.

It's a side step.

Before we had DNA testing it was a physical exam of breasts and genitals, not a pleasant thing and it wasn't always accurate.

A cheek swab is easy, probably quite cheap and you can build in processes for if someone has a DSD.

look on the bright side. We all know the benefits of sunlight-well this shit show is a fucking super nova burst all over the world-which won't go away.

This story featured yesterday in a segment from ABC Radio National's P.M. program. I was a little astonished to hear the final interviewee admit that, if these boxers are judged inelligible to compete then that will jepoardise trans women's paticipation in women's sport. So there you go. It's all about the entitlement of any man at any time to make a declaration of gender identity and compete in women's sporting competitions at community and elite levels.
They also went straight to some social science academic wanging on about CAIS and I feel awful for the women being dragged into this. It's so cheap and cruel. 💐 for any readers living with CAIS.

Absolutely! The permanent absence of periods for a start is an important benefit

Drugs testing is far more intrusive and embarrassing - let's scrap that too, eh? DNA testing in women's sports is essential

Matt Wallace on TwitX has shared a clip from yesterday, in which Khelif appears to cop a feel of Carini's breast.

https://x.com/MattWallace888/status/1819170620955078827