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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini

480 replies

Omlettes · 01/08/2024 17:33

Words fail I'm so angry, but by god she is brave.
Personally I feel sick and 'triggered' it reminds me of the first time an ex punched me on the thigh, I couldnt get over how much it hurt or the enormous bruise from knee to hip. I know there is a general thread on this but its so important it deserves multiple threads. I hope Carinis decision to stop the fight so very publicly makes a difference.
Meanwhile Khelif crows “I am here for gold,” “I will fight anybody, I will fight them all.”
Not the REMOTEST hint of sportsmanlike conduct.
I vote we write to VIiner en masse and lay some responsibility at her feet.
Actually EVERY editor, The Indy NYT WAPO etc
I am incandescent

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
AllProperTeaIsTheft · 02/08/2024 11:49

I think it is different to someone who chooses to become a female as this is a medical condition at birth.

Yes of course those two things are different.

I genuinely feel sorry for someone who is born with this condition

Yes, of course. So do I. That still doesn't make him female. Do you really think that ypur sympathy means that he should be allowed to compete in the wrong sex category and both endanger women and deprive them of the ability to compete fairly in a sport they've trained so hard in?

Do you go by chromosomes or genitals? Nobody seems able to answer.

In almost all circumstances, someone's genitals could be used to indicate which sex category they should compete in. But the existence of DSD means that's not enough. A vagina/penis is not a physical advantage in sport. Going through male puberty because you are male is!

mids2019 · 02/08/2024 11:52

I think the IOC make the decision to stop the event to prevent the legacy of 2024 being tarnished where there has been some great competition. This may happen.

Other female competitors may boycott the event forcing the IOCs hand.

Broadcasters and crowds could boycott the event.

Sponsors of the Olympics will not be happy as this story grows and I think generally the IOS are having urgent talks while stonewalling for time.

One thing that may help and there is a degree of honour about this is that the male withdraws and let's the completion go on. I think though the Algerian has had too many of the wrong people around him urging victory for this to May be happen and I don't know if he fully realises the weight of public opinion.

If there can't be IOC

Naunet · 02/08/2024 11:55

imisscashmere · 02/08/2024 08:30

Ugh, you lot are awful. You don’t know. You don’t know if this person has a penis (I guess that’s what the crinkle in the shorts photo is about? Gross) or what their medical/physical/genetic situation is.

I agree that biological sex is real, but you don’t have a monopoly on what the specific indicators are. You also don’t have a monopoly on the rules for any given sport.

The way you are carrying on is fanatical and hypocritical. I’ll leave you to it. Enjoy your Friday.

This emotional blackmail isn’t going to work anymore.

Naunet · 02/08/2024 11:55

Anyone know what time the second cheating male is fighting today?

Grammarnut · 02/08/2024 11:56

imisscashmere · 02/08/2024 08:16

Then I guess it is unclear whether this individual is a man, because they appear to be eligible for the women’s category, as far as the Olympics is concerned anyway.

PS - putting “jeez, it is so utterly tiresome having to explain etc” before your comment just makes you sound like a douchebag. You don’t have a monopoly on the truth any more than the gender ideologists. HTH!

This individual was found to have XY chromosomes by the IBA - who did not exclude him from the women's section because of testosterone but because he was XY (which they later admitted). He's a man with a male DSD.

sawdustformypony · 02/08/2024 12:00

Going through male puberty because you are male is!

@AllProperTeaIsTheft Yes, that's the binary question that counts. If you've been through male puberty you should not be allowed to compete in a women category. There may be some XY individuals that have a genetic disorder such that they have a female phenotype but never achieve male puberty - maybe a completely dysfunctional SRY gene and they then remain uncontested females.

Emmelina · 02/08/2024 12:14

Naunet · 02/08/2024 11:55

Anyone know what time the second cheating male is fighting today?

Are they claiming this one is also intersex and raised as a girl too? That would be convenient.

sadabouti · 02/08/2024 12:32

The question people should really be asking is why these boxers with xy chromosomes are deemed by their societies and the IOC to be un-men because of the visual appearance of their genitals. It's sexism isn't it. No observable penis and something that resembles (but isn't) a vagina in a woman, thus the un-men can be categorised as woman (panic over as cultural manliness has been protected). And to maintain this fiction you must disregard genetic reality in a species in which sex is immutable and expressed in every cell at the chromosomal level. I do wish people would just grow up and recognise the biological science without avoiding the BT's they don't like. They are men and should be validated as that by other men.

Collidascope · 02/08/2024 12:38

Naunet · 02/08/2024 11:55

Anyone know what time the second cheating male is fighting today?

2.30, I think.

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 13:05

NotBadConsidering · 02/08/2024 05:52

Males with CAIS have skeletal advantages and never have to worry about monthly variations in oestrogen or progesterone and never have to manage their training around their non-existent periods or manage their non-existent periods around their training.

They absolutely have male advantage.

Well I think that is probably true. The key really is the over-representation, the particular elements that contribute to that are educated guesses. There was a time where people seemed to think there was no advantage when there was less data available.

However, this does suggest, if we accept it, that it is not always chromosomes that would be the final line. If we found they weren't over represented, or were under-represented, would we say that it was logical to class them as women for sporting purposes?

(It does raise some interesting questions about suppression of menstruation through drugs, whether that also is an unfair advantage by using drugs, because it's quite common now among female athletes. How far can we play with our biology before it's not fair? Does it create a situation where all elite female athletes feel obliged to do it to compete? Is that healthy?)

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 13:09

ChildlessCatLadiesRuleOK · 02/08/2024 06:20

It shouldn't be a sport, full stop. Calling a display of ritualised violence a sport is obscene. If you want to watch a contest of skill, strength or agility there are plenty of other sports available.

Why do you think that just because you don't like something, or don't get it, you get to make a statement like this?

Boxing is called the thinking man's game for a reason. It's not just people bashing each other, and if that is all you can see it just shows your ignorance. It's a strategic game, with a lot of technical elements. It's also very carefully refereed these days.

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 13:14

Omlettes · 02/08/2024 08:22

Man.

I've said this already - I would not assume that is what you are thinking. It might be, but boxers wear pelvic or groin protectors and that might be what is making that particular lump. It certainly looks like it could be.

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 13:18

gardenmusic · 02/08/2024 08:45

Equality in the punching-other-people department is not a valuable goal

So you dismiss Judo, Karate, Tai Kwando, too?

Those are middle class sports, so they are ok....

RethinkingLife · 02/08/2024 13:35

(It does raise some interesting questions about suppression of menstruation through drugs, whether that also is an unfair advantage by using drugs, because it's quite common now among female athletes.

afaict, suppression of menstruation is not helpful of itself.

The use of hormonal contraception is not innocuous. Women with natural cycles show an increase in cardiorespiratory fitness in phases II and III, which is a factor to be considered in relation to training level and workload.

Recacha-Ponce P, Collado-Boira E, Suarez-Alcazar P, Montesinos-Ruiz M, Hernando-Domingo C. Is It Necessary to Adapt Training According to the Menstrual Cycle? Influence of Contraception and Physical Fitness Variables. Life (Basel). 2023 Aug 17;13(8):1764. doi: 10.3390/life13081764. PMID: 37629621; PMCID: PMC10455893.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10455893/

Loss of menstruation or amenorrhea used to be known as part of the female athlete triad. It's an area that needs a lot more research as a number of coaches and the lack of sex-specific sporting science contributed to this harmful phenomenon.

sadabouti · 02/08/2024 14:29

@TempestTost what's your personal status? Would you describe yourself as a woman with XY chromosomes.

You persist endlessly with the reality bending idea that chromosomes are not the beginning and the end of it. You keep going back to this pseudo scientific idea that men with DSDs are women because of the way they respond to testosterone, and the strength or lack thereof that their bodies may have as a result. It's all irrelevant. Some men are stronger, faster, taller, than others, it doesn't make those who are lower down this curve into women!

I am left to wonder what your real agenda is thru the never ending repetition of the misinformation that you peddle.

sadabouti · 02/08/2024 14:33

Well I'm watching a man box a women now on BBC.

Windymoore · 02/08/2024 14:36

Collidascope · 02/08/2024 12:38

2.30, I think.

I'm sure punches will be pulled

sadabouti · 02/08/2024 14:45

He is 8 inches taller and has a similar reach advantage. His frame and muscle is clearly male.

sadabouti · 02/08/2024 14:46

He won. What a great day for sport.

Snowypeaks · 02/08/2024 15:26

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 13:05

Well I think that is probably true. The key really is the over-representation, the particular elements that contribute to that are educated guesses. There was a time where people seemed to think there was no advantage when there was less data available.

However, this does suggest, if we accept it, that it is not always chromosomes that would be the final line. If we found they weren't over represented, or were under-represented, would we say that it was logical to class them as women for sporting purposes?

(It does raise some interesting questions about suppression of menstruation through drugs, whether that also is an unfair advantage by using drugs, because it's quite common now among female athletes. How far can we play with our biology before it's not fair? Does it create a situation where all elite female athletes feel obliged to do it to compete? Is that healthy?)

However, this does suggest, if we accept it, that it is not always chromosomes that would be the final line. If we found [CAIS athletes] weren't over represented, or were under-represented, would we say that it was logical to class them as women for sporting purposes?

From the NHS website:
AIS is caused by a genetic alteration that is passed along the female line to the child.
Although people with AIS have XY (usual male pattern) chromosomes, the body does not respond to testosterone (the sex hormone) fully or at all. This prevents the sex development of a typical male.

Normal male sex chromosomes, lack of response to testosterone.

The fact that they are over represented on podiums was the proof of the advantage gained by (we assume) not having periods and being on average taller. The advantage will not change, nor will the source of it - being male. So even if they stop being over-represented on podiums, it would not mean that they had no longer had any advantage on average, or that they were no longer male, because they could be falling away for any number of reasons.

Men as a class are excluded from female competition because of male advantage - the advantage they have over women y virtue of being male. One particular group of males not having an advantage (although this particular group always will) does not justify making an exception for that one group.

Don't be mesmerised by the fact that CAIS males have a phenotype which closely resembles the female. Looking like a woman is not what makes you eligible for the female category. Being female is. CAIS males do not have female internal anatomy. The resemblance to women is purely external. They are always going to have an advantage for the reasons I've mentioned before - height and lack of periods. This is not going to change.
Jonnie Peacock's T44 Paralympic 100m times were comparable with women's times. JP would also have had male advantage, but greatly reduced by the fact that he had 1.75 legs instead of the full complement. We didn't therefore allow Jonnie Peacock into the female category. He and any CAIS athlete still belong to the class of males, not the class of females.

A CAIS athlete is just as male as Usain Bolt. They are weaker and slower than Usain Bolt. So are women, the argument runs, therefore it's reasonable to let the weakened males race with the women. It's not reasonable. The argument for allowing CAIS males into female competition is exactly the same as the argument for allowing any male in.

(It does raise some interesting questions about suppression of menstruation through drugs, whether that also is an unfair advantage by using drugs, because it's quite common now among female athletes. How far can we play with our biology before it's not fair? Does it create a situation where all elite female athletes feel obliged to do it to compete? Is that healthy?)
It may be an advantage, but it's not unfair because all of the competitors could suppress menstruation if they chose. (A male would not have to.)

I am curious to know why you are so invested in allowing this group of males into the female category, though. Obviously, we are different people, but to me it seems blindingly obvious that males should compete against males and females against females. And since everyone is either male or female, there's no need to make exceptions.

There is no corresponding opportunity for a woman to compete in men's events. Especially not a woman weakened by a DSD or other medical condition. So the inclusion would only go one way. In sport terms, males have the equivalent of a vast stately home with deer park and landscaped gardens, while women have the gatekeeper's cottage and a small kitchen garden. You are suggesting that we might give up some of our garden and a room in the cottage to male people, and I am simply trying to understand what is driving your take on this.

Pepperypot · 02/08/2024 15:31

MaidOfAle · 02/08/2024 11:28

Hollywood faux feminist movies and TV series that show skinny model thin women fighting and defeating larger male opponents with ease

Buffy The Vampire Slayer. Yes, she was meant to be supernaturally strong because of her Slayer powers, but it was so easy to forget that when watching her fight.

And of course, what did we later find out about the scriptwriter Joss Whedon...? AKA "a day ending in Y in showbiz", based on #metoo and the current Neil Gaiman thread.

@Boudiccaofsteel and @MaidOfAle funnily enough I have been pondering on exactly this on a long drive this morning. I was also thinking how there have been comments regarding Carini's opponent and the other one who's sex seems to be in doubt , and how they have previously been beaten by women. Two things crossed my mind: TV shows often show highly trained women beating very unfit men, although there's an element of fantasy too, obviously.
And re women beating men, I think in sports where competitors are aiming at Olympic level, they will compete at less than peak fitness as practice/training, without the intention to win. At the Olympics, the aim is for competitors to be at their absolute peak. And a woman at her peak is nowhere near as strong as a man at his peak.

This is just my own ruminations. I'm finding the discussion of what constitutes male or female in the case of DSD very interesting. But whatever the case the whole debacle does show why most women are so keen to retain their single sex spaces.

Schoolqueriesss · 02/08/2024 15:33

Very cross listening to the radio just now. They didn’t use the word transgender, or mention gender once in their reporting of this. BBC1 just said ‘who was disqualified last year for having advantages that placed them at an advantage over other women’

they need to be clear on what the issue is.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 02/08/2024 15:34

Schoolqueriesss · 02/08/2024 15:33

Very cross listening to the radio just now. They didn’t use the word transgender, or mention gender once in their reporting of this. BBC1 just said ‘who was disqualified last year for having advantages that placed them at an advantage over other women’

they need to be clear on what the issue is.

Depending on the topic, transgender status may be completely irrelevant.

Variations in sex development may be relevant but there will be no clarity on this matter.

EasternStandard · 02/08/2024 15:37

Schoolqueriesss · 02/08/2024 15:33

Very cross listening to the radio just now. They didn’t use the word transgender, or mention gender once in their reporting of this. BBC1 just said ‘who was disqualified last year for having advantages that placed them at an advantage over other women’

they need to be clear on what the issue is.

I don’t think transgender is relevant but maybe there’s a better way to discuss this

We need IBA process replicated by the IOC

LightFull · 02/08/2024 15:39

TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers · 01/08/2024 18:07

Meanwhile Khelif crows “I am here for gold,” “I will fight anybody, I will fight them all.”

‘…except the men, I won’t fight the men…’

Yes this

Why has he chosen to fight women and not men

Mmmm

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