Jane Clare Jones blog on Tommy Robinson

[CassieMaddox]

Just a really great read
https://janeclarejones.com/2024/07/28/tommy-robinson-far-right-populism-and-gender-criticism/

These are my favourite bits:

The greatest danger to women and girls has always been, and remains, the men inside their own houses. This is the nature, and the devastation, of endemic male sexual violence. It usually happens in the place, and with the people, who are supposed to be most safe. It would perhaps be comforting to imagine that we could easily identify the men who are dangerous – the Muslims, the brown ones, the ones in dresses – and then we could keep ourselves safe by keeping them out. But the argument materialist feminists made throughout the early years of the gender wars applies equally here: men are a statistical danger to women as a class and there is prima facie no way of working out which ones are dangerous and which ones are not.

The argument is no longer ‘guilt by association’ or ‘purity politics,’ it is now a) What even is the far right anyway?, b) The far right doesn’t mean anything because I was called far right for knowing men aren’t women, c) You people think anyone who disagrees with you is far right, and d) He is not far right anyway. That is, it has moved from claiming that association with the far right is either not happening or if it is happening has no impact on the substance of GC discourse, to people openly associating with the far right and recycling far right talking points while denying that the far right is the far right.

But what feminist women have tried, largely unsuccessfully, to get across, is that these kinds of men are not on ‘your side,’ if ‘your side’ is genuinely defending women’s rights. These men are on their side, and their side wants a largely white patriarchal nation, in which ‘their’ women know their place and are ‘protected’ only insofar as ‘protection’ means keeping them guarded from ‘other’ men.

The pictures at the end of the article are very illuminating too.

Brava JCJ 👏

OK. You seemed earlier to have a pretty encyclopaediac memory for my posting history. I apologise for misrepresentation you.

I think its boiling frog and people don't notice what has happened.

Like Glinner - I was very supportive of him, he's been treated appallingly. But now he seems to spend his whole time tweeting about "groomers", being a bit LGB generally and totally OTT. When I listened to the Jon Ronson episode about him, I could completely see that he's gone down a rabbit hole.

I think the same has happened to KJK. I had no time for her anyway from when she posted on here, but I thought what happened to her in NZ was terrible. Then I see what she now posts and does, and she is constantly spoiling for a fight and posting far right, Trump loving content. It's crazy.

Or DJ Lippy, I used to love her stuff but she's gone far right, anti-Islam too.

Maybe twitter warps people's brains, but it does come across as radicalisation and I don't want to encourage it.

Bring it up and it's desperate smears against you to avoid the cognitive dissonance. Kind of "la la la I can't hear you".

JCJ very carefully wrote an article that was general enough not to talk about people, but to talk about patterns. And we still can't manage it. That says something about what's happening.

I replied pre your edit. Lovely update

I'm not sure what I've said that drives you to believe I would "stop traumatised women getting support", but it's a pretty outrageous thing to say.

I didn't mention either JCJ or Posie Parker so not sure where that is coming from... No Posie Parker envy here considering she has done nothing for me to be envious of.

I specifically mentioned that there are far right who are trying to influence the women's right movements for their own gains. If you can't admit that, you're the only one on here so far considering many others have said it does happen and they do disagree with it.

@Alwaystired94

How is Tommy Robinson et al "using the women's movement" on this issue exactly? Where are their anti TRA marches? I would agree they are capitalising more on the idea of migration/multiculturalism and different cultural attitudes to women and girls, than gender identity.

What's happening is that astonishingly a populist movement (some posters might like to look up the definition) on the right of the political spectrum is attracting people who feel disillusioned, rightly or wrongly, by current politics, and surprise surprise most members of that movement share the same self-evidently true beliefs about what a woman is in biological terms as most of the world does, as well as having their own harmful ideological views about "gender" and sex roles.

I have said many times, I believe genderism is toxic and harmful. I believe it's misogyny. Women's rights are my active political priority at the current time. If you think other things are more harmful, that's your prerogative. You can do as you see fit. Tommy Robinson can be arrested for contempt of court, no? And if anything he does, or his followers do is over the threshold of criminal activity, like rioting, injuring people or animals or damaging property, he and/or his followers who do it should be prosecuted for this. The authorities haven't exactly shied away from taking action against him before, I don't think? If you think they are, maybe apply some pressure on them. If you think the laws aren't strict enough, campaign to change them, but be aware that restricting people's freedom of expression or speech affects people you agree with too.

Punish people who commit crimes and who threaten and abuse others, particularly vulnerable people. Absolutely crack down hard on violence and threats on all sides. With regard to people's freedom to hold opinions, you have to accept that people have the right to see the world in many different ways and there are no simple answers to many of these things.

And that we live in a democracy. Labour won this time, but no one is particularly enthused by them. They won solely because people wanted to get the Tories out. The 4 million people who voted for Reform UK had their own protest against both parties. They didn't win many seats due to our FPTP system, but the Greens etc who want proportional representation should consider what it would actually mean in practice.

Have I misunderstood or were you referring to TR here?

What's happening is that astonishingly a populist movement (some posters might like to look up the definition) on the right of the political spectrum is attracting people who feel disillusioned, rightly or wrongly, by current politics

X/Twitter is definitely more of a cult social media these days for all ideologies. Echo chambers, rampant misinformation. Someone should never be unable to face criticism for their actions.

Just laughable how many times I (and you i've seen on other threads) are asked about TRAs and how bigoted they are and why don't we denounce them etc yet the other way around it's denial?

I am the first to admit that there is a vocal subsection of people hiding behind TRA X/Twitter who are deeply misogynistic, anyone who sends rape threats is. But yet it seems i hold myself to a higher standard than those on here seem to.

I'm really hoping soon the West comes up with a way to hold the owners of these platforms to account for the content they host. It is so damaging to us: democracy, womens rights, equality generally all being harmed by people acting in ways thar would be illegal if it was in print

I can understand the rest of your reply but not this, I am completely baffled:

Fucks sake. And then the "soc fems" are the ones getting accused of "intellectual snobbery".

As for the rest.

So now you acknowledge that there are no fascists elected to Parliament and your earlier comment was hyperbolic.

There is a lot of catastrophising in your posts.

An alternative reading of the large vote (but small number of seats) for Reform UK is that we will all be better served by a significant number of people having their concerns represented via Parliamentary Democracy rather than by rioting in the streets.

It is impossible to judge what proportion of the population support the views of Reform UK because the turn out at the last General Election was so poor, with the pattern of "no shows" meaning that the Tories lost the election rather than Labour winning it. A better turn out next time might see a Tory resurgency, more seats for Reform UK, both or neither. Too soon to know whether this is a blip or a trend.

How is Tommy Robinson et al "using the women's movement" on this issue exactly? Where are their anti TRA marches? I would agree they are capitalising more on the idea of migration/multiculturalism and different cultural attitudes to women and girls, than gender identity.
Inviting prominent and respected members of the 'GC' movement to his rallies is quite a big one. He wants exposure of his views to a new audience of course, they need to grow. I didn't say he is pushing it over his usual, i'm saying he wants the exposure from other schools of thought and using them to get it. Men like him hate GC women as much as they hate non-GC women.

What's happening is that astonishingly a populist movement (some posters might like to look up the definition) on the right of the political spectrum is attracting people who feel disillusioned, rightly or wrongly, by current politics, and surprise surprise most members of that movement share the same self-evidently true beliefs about what a woman is in biological terms as most of the world does, as well as having their own harmful ideological views about "gender" and sex roles.
I know what populism is and i understand why some feel they need to fall for populism. But as i've explained multiple times now, my point is they want exposure to other movements to recruit. Having prominent members of that community legitimise them, makes some believe their belief is more legitimate.

I have said many times, I believe genderism is toxic and harmful. I believe it's misogyny. Women's rights are my active political priority at the current time. If you think other things are more harmful, that's your prerogative. You can do as you see fit. Tommy Robinson can be arrested for contempt of court, no? And if anything he does, or his followers do is over the threshold of criminal activity, like rioting, injuring people or animals or damaging property, he and/or his followers who do it should be prosecuted for this. The authorities haven't exactly shied away from taking action against him before, I don't think? If you think they are, maybe apply some pressure on them. If you think the laws aren't strict enough, campaign to change them, but be aware that restricting people's freedom of expression or speech affects people you agree with too.
Considering the amount of this thread we've been discussing how 2 tier policing is a very real thing, it says it all how he has been able to peddle his misinformation on the streets and incite hatred they way he has been able to. I am not asking to restrict anyone's freedom of expression or speech more than it currently is, i'm explaining how others giving platforms to their views is feeding him and his ilk.

Punish people who commit crimes and who threaten and abuse others, particularly vulnerable people. Absolutely crack down hard on violence and threats on all sides. With regard to people's freedom to hold opinions, you have to accept that people have the right to see the world in many different ways and there are no simple answers to many of these things.
Agreed. He has the freedom to say he thinks all Muslims are insert insult here but that means others also have the freedom to reply back that he is insert insult here. I don't think people like TR can have those opinions changed, it's so ingrained into them at this point because of how toxic it is.

And that we live in a democracy. Labour won this time, but no one is particularly enthused by them. They won solely because people wanted to get the Tories out. The 4 million people who voted for Reform UK had their own protest against both parties. They didn't win many seats due to our FPTP system, but the Greens etc who want proportional representation should consider what it would actually mean in practice.
I agree, this is a democracy and yes Labour won. Personally i didn't just vote to GTTO but i know many who did.

Thank you for engaging in the discussion at least unlike the other poster - i think it is good to have these conversations as you can learn so much.

Not at all. You have misunderstood my point.

My point was that when we have a Muslim equivalent of Nigel Farage amplifying and sharing "islamo-fascist" views and winning 15% of the vote, I'll agree that "far left" and "far right" are equally as bad.

At the moment only the far right is in the category of being a risk.

Posters saying "the far left is equally as bad" are drawing a false equivalence, similar to posters claiming "women are domestic abusers too" on a post about family annihilation.

Men like him hate GC women as much as they hate non-GC women.

I'm not saying they don't. I'm not a fan.

I thought so based on some of your other replies but wasn't sure if I'd mixed up usernames.

X/Twitter is definitely more of a cult social media these days for all ideologies. Echo chambers, rampant misinformation.

Yes, again I agree with you but it's not just Twitter, it's all social media. Reddit, Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram.

OK. You seemed earlier to have a pretty encyclopaediac memory for my posting history. I apologise for misrepresentation you.

Thank you. I think you must be confusing me with someone else.

I'm not sure what I've said that drives you to believe I would "stop traumatised women getting support", but it's a pretty outrageous thing to say.

It is difficult to follow in a fast-moving thread.

That was the last in a string of replies to and fro between us, about you saying that you would not let a Transwidow needing support know about how to contact @TinselAngel because of ideological/political differences between you both.

I don't know if you have actually called Tinsel a bigot but the impact is the same. Hence my comparing you to Mridul Wadhwa refusing to let women know about Biera's Place.

You have confirmed already in this thread that you would refuse to let a woman know how to contact Tinsel and why, so that is not in doubt. You explained that you did this to "protect your reputation".

I happen to think that that is despicable and not the work of a feminist.

What's happening is that astonishingly a populist movement (some posters might like to look up the definition) on the right of the political spectrum is attracting people who feel disillusioned, rightly or wrongly, by current politics

I'm referring to the support for right wing populism across the globe, of which Tommy Robinson is but one proponent. He doesn't exist in a vacuum, does he. Trump is another example.

Right. Well you admitted you didn't read the thread. And you chose to use the name of a high profile trans identified male inappropriately running a rape crisis centre and directly say I am "on a par" with him for making my own choices about what to recommend to my own friends in my own life.

So

Thats what it's for. Outrageous and yet apparently I'm the one who is rude

What did you actually say to @TinselAngel, @CassieMaddox?

oh the others are definitely bad too. But the X algorithm has created even more pockets of like minded people and now it's weaponized against each other.

Reddit has some really awful parts too - but then the less of an 'algorithm' means its a self made echo chamber rather than one forced onto you.

Reddit has some really awful parts too - but then the less of an 'algorithm' means it's a self made echo chamber rather than one forced onto you.

Interesting, not sure what you mean about the algorithm being less?

OK.
I find it minimising to call Tommy Robinson and other populists "on the right of the political spectrum".

Most people on the right of the political spectrum are not populists and are not interested in this divisiveness. I think that's why the Conservatives vote share plummeted in the last GE and their vote base didn't turn out.

Facebook groups are pretty echo chambery, for instance. Reddit is a problem because every mod can enforce and control the narrative based on their own prejudices, like FB groups. Twitter allows mostly for challenge.

I find it minimising to call Tommy Robinson and other populists "on the right of the political spectrum".

Oh well. You'll think whatever you want, and so will I. Great thing, freedom of expression.

Obviously you can choose which subreddits you use and interact with but many of the more 'general' ones include many different viewpoints unlike if you went onto the transuk subreddit or the old gender critical one before it was banned.

I use reddit and use many communities with that showing many different viewpoints, If i was only using one, i'd be in more of an echo chamber because thats all i would be interacting with. Such as the algorithm for X for if i started liking Andrew Tate tweets more of his stuff will be pushed to me and more accounts like him. Obviously reddit also has an algorithm but it's not as overt seemingly as the X one has been recently.