olympics question

[StellaGreen]

Please help me here, are there any men (trans women) competing in the biological women's events in the Olympics games in Paris?
Some people say there are and others are saying there are none.
Hopefully common sense prevails and fair sport for women is being upheld at this games.

If there is one DSD that I am on the fence about, it is CAIS.
I remember the posts by the member with CAIS and they were utterly heartbreaking.
I just keep imagining either of my daughters in their mid teens (one of whom WAS a late menstruator) being diagnosed with such a condition and suddenly being told they are a male and must use male facilities etc.
Cannot imagine what they must go through. To all intents and purposes they are female, unable to respond to testosterone (even synthetic testosterone, so no point in giving them "T" to masculinize them).
I think this is the one DSD that breaks the rules, but that is my personal opinion.
The poster here, I think, left due to unkind posts (though I may be wrong on that). It's a horrible dilemma.

All of which to say, I don't know enough about the ultimate effect to advocate (or not) for their inclusion in the female sporting category, but in general life, I think people with CAIS should be treated with the utmost sympathy and compassion.

Dougalskeeper · Today 11:25

2 male boxers taking part in female class

To me, this is complete and utter insanity, it highlights the sex differences like no other sport. Women are almost certain to suffer serious injury, by being matched against males.

I used to box and coach, I sparred with everyone, from 8 year old boys, to women and girls. We had a very fit, strong lady of about 11 stone and she could hit me as hard as she liked, it didn't hurt. I was a shade over 12 stone and had a rib broken by an 8 stone 15 year old, in contrast.

We wouldn't let youths spar with women, because most of them didn't understand that they needed to pull their punches.

Is the poster you are all referring to Clare from Twitter? I thought they just popped in from time to time to discuss the issues and to make sure the information is understood. They often post links to their own website for people to read.

If that is the case, I don't recall them being treated unkindly. Just that they are not regulars and obviously don't wish to be. They are absolutely clear that DSDs should not be leveraged by those who attempt to use their conditions politically for any transgender issues.

The question of whether or not a male athlete should be in female competition isn't difficult. They shouldn't.

Athletes and people in general discover shocking things about themselves every day. If we are talking about someone born in a country/area without access to routine maternity care, competing in lower levels or in younger age groups, probably nobody would know or suspect about the CAIS for a long time. But by the time a person is an adult, they will know or suspect that something is up. Especially since AIS and 46XY 5ARD runs in families and therefore there are clusters in certain populations.

As soon as an athlete does find out, it is incumbent on them to stop competing with women. The Open category would be ideal, if there is one. But never the female category.

They don't have to announce the reason, although I think it might be healthy for people generally to be aware of such conditions, but obviously that's their decision to make.

We should bring back sex passports for competition above a certain level/age. Cheek swab, one and done for life.

There is no need or justification for compromising fair competition for all females in order to protect the privacy of a few males if they are determined to carry on competing in the female category.

The CAIS person I remember (username of Alex?) was male, though socially a woman. Sport is different, though. Fairness and safety are paramount.

It does seem unreasonably intrusive to me to put that personal information into the public domain.

If sports had clear, robust, scientifically defensible policies - and applied them - there would be no need to put anyone's individual information into the public domain. Everyone would simply qualify or not, with no chopping and changing or public speculation.

Yes agreed

Yes. I didn't mean to imply she was treated unkindly. More she had given me insight into what the implications of referring to someone as "genetically male" could be.

I agree with PP CAIS is the hard one to categorise and it annoys me that it's been coopted for competitors who are more "male" (PAIS/5 alpha reductase) to compete.

The Times has woken up to the situation in women's boxing

www.thetimes.com/sport/olympics/article/olympics-allows-female-boxers-banned-over-gender-eligibility-to-compete-bk70xqs36

https://archive.ph/Bkvkr past the paywall

The 'be kind' of the reporting, arguably understandable with some individuals with DSDs, can make it a little confusing. It's an abdication of responsibility by the IOC. Boxing, imo, is dangerous anyway. This could see a woman seriously hurt.

@LaeralSilverhand @helleofabore

The IOC reviewed it's rules in 2021 and removed the requirement to reach specified testosterone and FIFA responded with a 'case by case' approach and a promise to review their rules within the human rights framework.

IOC: Prioritise Inclusion
FIFA: Prioritise human rights (default male)

The CAS (court of arbitration in sport) gave an incredibly reasoned argument in the Semenya case, but in my opinion, made an illogical conclusion in only applying the rule to certain events. IAAF (athletics) have since clearly stated that in order to protect the female category... the DSD regulations should use 2.5nmol.

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1115561/ioc-olympics-transgender-sport

Banda and Kundananji have not broken any rules (nor have the boxers) but the organisations have failed every woman in the competiton.

Every comment about how amazing Banda is, belongs to an awesome woman. Every defender who was defeated by Banda will carry that failure with them and it could affect their game mindset irreparably unless we tell them, it's not you, it was not fair, you deserved better. And I cannot begin to put words on the criminal insanity of risking the lives of female boxers, they cannot consent to the risks involved if they do not know who they are up against.

Yes. I remember oh so well the IOC stating that they will leave it up to the sporting federations.

And while these male athletes are not breaking any rules, they are certainly not respectful of the needs of women and have taken clear advantage of loopholes forced open for them for the 1996 Atlanta Olympics when sex testing was stopped. This has been a very long term strategy and it was then leveraged by the lobby groups for transgender male athletes ultimately in 2015/6.

The awareness about these athletes are now at an all time high and even then, it is still quite low. I had discussions on the weekend about male DSD athletes with some people who believed they were up on the topic and they had little understanding when it came to explaining what they thought they knew. It was all emotionally driven campaign speak.

This might be interesting to listen to.

“I forgot to post, but we are doing daily recaps & insight shows on the #Paris2024 #OlympicGames”

”Here is the latest, in which we:
- Correct BBC errors on lactate & fatigue
- Talk Women's MTB dominance
- Discuss looming DSD controversies in boxing & football”

https://x.com/scienceofsport/status/1817854928842346686?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

In another tweet Ross Tucker has said he thinks the IOC will do nothing in boxing unless a woman suffers extreme injury or worse.

Boxing, imo, is dangerous anyway

My view is that a 'sport' whose objective is to impart damage to the head is not a sport at all, and I laugh at those who whimper about head-contact in the rugby codes means we need to drastically change the rules for reasons of player safety. And yet boxing is fine? However, I appreciate that this is a minority view. However, I hope that one day we will look back on boxing as we now do on bear-baiting.

Yes it's totally ridiculous to punish contact with the head in rugby and remove players for head injury assessment but encourage it in boxing.

the boxing situation feels urgent.

Banda and her mate, well, theirs is a team sport and perhaps luckily those two play for a relatively weak international team, the only real 'victims' at this Olympics are the two or more real women who would have made the Zambia squad had the males with DSD's not been available for selection, or more realistically the players and supporters of the next-best African nation who'd have qualified had Zambia not made it.

but women's health is at stake in the boxing, head injuries waiting to happen, it's unacceptable.

They could compete in their own paralympic category rather than stuffing up women’s events.

It is likely that it will take a woman suffering a life changing injury to stop men being allowed to box against women. Meanwhile, on another thread, there is a vigorous debate about whether the Venn diagram overlap of Tommy Robinson and Gender Critical women is 0.1% or 1.0%.

Priorities, eh? 😄

@puffyisgood.. While I agree that injury to boxers is an urgent and serious priority... It's not just potential members of Zambia's squad that are affected by the presence of males in that team.. Those players are the two most expensive players in women's soccer ever, they have had lucrative contracts in several clubs and countries and every women who lines up for the opposition faces micro erosion of their confidence which might affect their entire career.

And many many many women, including me, think about the thousands of men who are complicit in either actively or passively allowing this to happen, silencing or ridiculing people who raise concerns, and construct defenses around this that put women below men.... and wonder how it is possible that men think so little of women ..

These threads always make me think about the BBC documentary "The Unfair Games" a few years back which is about Paralympic categories.

It doesn't address the DSD or Trans stuff at all, but it talks about the politics and strong incentives to exploit even slight advantages within a classification and the impact it has on athletes effected (both those suddenly placed at a disadvantage and those who would seemingly benefit but are also exploited then dropped as soon as it looks bad or the rules change again). I thought it did an amazing job of looking at the situation from many angles and being really balanced

It shouldn't be up to females to prove males have an advantage, it isn't their category. Sports are about the embodied person's physicality, not their personality or belief system. Sex not gender.

DSD categories for the Paralympics would be an obvious answer that gives inclusive sporting opportunities whilst protecting the female events.

Agreed.

We seem to be starting from the position that male athletes with what amounts to a disability (depending on how they feel about it) must automatically be accommodated in female sport, even if it is to the detriment of women. No.

Space should be carved out in men's Paralympic sport where the DSD genuinely amounts to a disability, which is only the case for CAIS and PAIS to a degree. Otherwise, men's sport. It's not women's problem.

Sean Ingle doing his usual as clear as he can be writing.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/29/boxers-who-failed-gender-tests-at-world-championships-cleared-to-compete-at-olympics

On X, Sean is saying he thinks this could blow up further:

Spoke to IOC and few others for this. Imagine it might blow up further >>> Boxers who failed gender tests at world championships cleared to compete at Olympics

Certainly hope so, it’s an appalling state of affairs.

I genuinely can't see why having a cheek swab test is invasive. I'd find a piss test for drugs post event while being watched more embarrassing personally.

But then I'm not a raging cheat.

I wonder how the Paris 2024 insurance underwriters will look at this?

We knew that there were two males in the women’s boxing events and we went ahead anyway isn’t going to cut the mustard.

They probably make each country underwrite their own athletes, so the victims of these men would need to be medically treated by their own countries. I hope I'm wrong.