olympics question

[StellaGreen]

Please help me here, are there any men (trans women) competing in the biological women's events in the Olympics games in Paris?
Some people say there are and others are saying there are none.
Hopefully common sense prevails and fair sport for women is being upheld at this games.

They are blatenly taking the piss and we are all supposed to go along with it.

Please make it stop!

I don't really agree. Banda is obviously a man: square jawed; extremely lean & muscular; no hips or breasts; deep voice.

RK to me looks female, or at least definitely not like someone who's been through male puberty. Bluntly put, she seems to have breast development. Some cheekbone area fat deposits too. If she failed a sex test I can only assume she has CAIS or something like that.

It is interesting watching Rachael Kundananji walk from behind.

Hiltz and Quinn are absolutely fine competing where they are. hiltz has spoken about wanting to take testoerone, grow a beard, but knows that to have the sporting career, it has to be put off, and said sometimes she hates the sport for that. But is making a choice, and a legitimate one, if painful right now. I hope Hiltz is happier later in life, but am glad there's no cheating. Now, that might be because she's female, who can say......

Banda, Serena, Mboma, the two boxers etc are not the same. They are male. And cheaters.

if you want to watch some women’s sport at its absolute finest watch the XC MTB from this afternoon. Not the most promising course initially but it really tested the pack and led to some absolutely riveting racing. And I love the way MTB always ends with a massive group hug between women who were just killing each other moments before.

Aargh, Semenya, clearly not Serena. Autocorrect fail.

I’ve read that sportswomen who want to transition wait until their careers are over before doing it. If they start taking testosterone they won’t be eligible to compete in the women’s category and they won’t be good enough to compete in the men’s category.

But that doesn’t seem to happen in the case of sportsmen who want transition. They just go ahead and do it, and then compete in the women’s category.

Strange that, isn’t it?

I posted a number of links on the other thread about Barbra Banda... this player along with two others from Zambia, failed the sex verification test required by the womens african cup of nations and did not medicate to reduce their testosterone levels as required by the DSD regulations in force.

Banda and Kundananji have professional football contracts, previously in Spain, China and currently in the USA. They are the top two most expensive players in the history of the women's game, commanding higher transfer fees than any female woman, ever!

Come on journalists!!! We know you read Mumsnet... it's a great headline!! Most expensive women's footballer ever, has XY chromosones.

(This is what is meant by a DSD with male levels of testosterone.... any attempt to suggest other possible explanations - eh female DSD's or PCOS, are incorrect.)

In 2021 the IOC prioritised inclusion over fairness and dropped any requirement to have a testosterone limit for the female category leaving it up to the individual sporting bodies.

FIFA is reportedly reviewing its regulations, taking into account the advice of medical, legal and scientific experts. FIFA has indicated that if the issue arises before the regulations are issued, it will address the issue on a case-by-case basis, taking into account the federation's commitment to human rights. [51]

https://www.charlesrussellspeechlys.com/en/insights/expert-insights/sport/2023/the-status-of-transgender-and-intersex-athletes-in-international-sports-federations/

Sports federations must expect that the rules they have or will make will be challenged by athletes in arbitration or state courts, and criticised by the media.

WHERE ARE THE LEGAL CHALLENGES ON BEHALF OF WOMEN AND WHERE IS THE MEDIA CRITICISM WHERE FEMALES ARE EXCLUDED FROM THEIR OWN CATEGORIES?

Why have the journalists not written articles about this very issue?

And yes it is horrible that we end up eyeballing particular athletes and trying to guess their medical conditions. This is squarely on the sports federations for allowing male athletes to compete with women. There's a massive distrust now. Just like when people were getting away with doping, athletes who suddenly performed well or had particularly physiques were looked at with suspicion.

It looks like RK has PAIS. It would be impossible to quantify the extent of her advantage, if any, over a normally developed XX female, so the only logical solution is to exclude from female competition. But we're a long way from having a sensible open debate about this, in a world where Semenya and Banda, who are men in every important sense, are pussy-footed around by all.

This is true.

But the source of the advantage is what matters. It is from maleness, and male athletic performance advantage is what the female category is supposed to exclude. It doesn't matter how small or large the advantage is if someone is doping with drugs or by other methods. The source of the advantage is illegitimate, whether someone has CAIS, PAIS, 46, XY 5-ARD or any other DSD.

I think that there will be time in the future when athletes with CAIS will be excluded from female sport. That time is certainly not now. My own opinion is that PAIS is more clear cut and they should be excluded because there is some testosterone development and I would suggest it is enough to have unfair advantage.

For clairty:
Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS) is when a person who has one X and one Y chromosome (typically seen in males) but is resistant to hormones that produce a male appearance (called androgens). As a result, the person has some of the physical traits of a female, but the genetic makeup of a male.

using the words 'she' and normally devemoped XX female without stating that PAIS is only ever present in males obscures the facts.

Cycling, Rugby, Athletics, Swimming have all managed to have well reasoned sensible discussions and have extended the exclusion of XY athletes to all of their events.

I can't remember every detail of all of the policies as there has been a lot of changes in recent years so plesse excuse me if I do not have all of the latest regulations 100% correct.

It is impossoble to find the guidelines for FIFA or FA or to find anyone to email to get this or to question their policies. I know that Fair Play for Women have also struggled to get an audience with the FA to ask them why they have not implemented the guidelines issed in Sept 2021 by the Sports Councils of England, Scotlamd and Wales requiring them to exclude males from the female category.

I read yesterday that there are 2 XY boxers in the female boxing competition. They’ve been banned by the IBA but not the Olympics.

Total madness and a disaster for those who could be seriously injured fighting them.

This is where I have to point out that boys are stronger, faster, etc than girls. A male athlete with CAIS has an advantage over a female athlete. It's just that it's smaller than other males have. A man who doped with a small amount of testosterone or a woman who has a small engine hidden in her bike may only gain a small advantage but it is from a source which is banned.

CAIS individuals have fully feminised musculoskeletal systems and derive zero testosterone advantage. They're more than averagely tall, but perform similarly to XX individuals of the same height. They don't have periods or a hormone cycle, which is an advantage. There's arguably a debate to be had about the extent to which mere possession of an SRY gene and some ineffectual internal testes confers maleness and male sporting advantage.

I'm not advocating for or against their inclusion. I'm saying that in a sane world all of the above would be debated openly, but, instead, actual scientific facts are ignored or obfuscated.

I don't really understand why. Is it something to do with ideas about gender? Or because people are squeamish about talking about medical conditions or sex?

Not read the full thread but I think there may be two in the boxing, of all things!!

the IOC really is rotten to the core

“It is impossoble to find the guidelines for FIFA or FA”

Isn’t it? I tried to do a search over the weekend but I didn’t have time to do an extensive search. It seems to be rather difficult to look up easily. I was looking for the current testosterone boundaries that athletes are assessed on because there were conflicting articles about suppression. It seemed like there was articles about suppression and then after these two athletes being excluded, there then seemed to be articles saying no suppression needed.

Lots of discussion about the review announced in 2022, but nothing since. And no discussion on the process at all.

I think campaign groups need to start applying pressure to get FIFA to be transparent and to actually show they are doing this review.

Isn't that down to a T surge in early childhood, which a CAIS child wouldn't respond to?

Maybe CAIS will need to have specific studies to support any changes. Because yes, there are still advantages (height / skeletal proportions on average is one of these advantages) and CAIS athletes are over represented in elite female sport compared to the representation in the general population.

Aren’t skeletons, not height but bone proportions, derived from genes rather than testosterone?

The height issue is that they are generally taller as a group than women are taller.

I suspect a cluster of 'tallness' genes on the Y. But I understood skeletal strength and geometry to be T-dependent. CAIS have wide hips, driven by oestrogen (converted from T by the body during puberty).

Barry McGuigan has tweeted about the. boxers.

https://x.com/clonescyclone/status/1817800751848054877?s=46&t=ZX_bLozRqm8etdGICMcAvA

@Helleofabore Even the Sports Council Website, which used to be Equality in Sport.. is now called 'Moving towards Inclusion'.. hides the guidelines for the protection of the female category under the banner of inclusion. These topics deserve their own distinct spaces.

I am trying to formulate my fury into a response to them....

Equality, fairness and protection of the female sporting category is important.

Without fairness, sport is meaningless.

By always framing this discussion within the context of human rights of male athletes and the right of male athletes to inclusion, we are NEVER putting the rights of women front and centre... even to consider the question.

Every document starts with.... first we include... then we consider fairness. That doesn't happen in the discussion about doping.. we don't allow our athletes every possibility to dope to improve their performance and then say.... but consider if it's fair... the doping regulations start with the declaration of a fundamental rights to fairness in competion.