olympics question

[StellaGreen]

Please help me here, are there any men (trans women) competing in the biological women's events in the Olympics games in Paris?
Some people say there are and others are saying there are none.
Hopefully common sense prevails and fair sport for women is being upheld at this games.

Last olympics there was a male New Zealand weight lifted competing in the women’s. Embarrassingly for him despite being a man competing against women he didn’t medal.

here's the chart again.

Wow! That shows it very well, not even an overlap in the distributions.

Thank you for that chart - super clear.

Am I right in thinking that the 'Semenya line' isn't Semenya's natural testosterone level, but the level he had to reduce to with drugs to in order to compete?

More broadly, part of the issue all along is the (deliberately?) misleading reporting. For years we were told that Semenya was totally a woman with naturally high testosterone, ohhh well, nothing to see here. The BBC said it. All the news outlets said it. This turned out to be ... inaccurate.

So it invites a certain scepticism to see exactly the same language used to talk about Banda. And, indeed, the coverage of other athletes doesn't help either. I've read a number of articles about Quinn and Hiltz where it was impossible to work out whether they were infact male-bodied non-binary or female-bodied. I'm glad to see here they are in fact female, and competing in the correct sex-class, but it does illustrate the lack of clarity in reporting. Whilst I appreciate privacy around medical information is important, the lack of accuracy really doesn't help.

Even if you take fairness for women entirely out of the equation, expecting males to reduce their testosterone levels to 2.5 in order to compete feels like a completely unethical requirement. There is no acknowledgment of the long term harm this might do to a male body. I imagine many of these athletes would be reluctant to use oestrogen either because they are not even “transgender” they are just males with a medical condition that gives them a free pass into the female category.

@SabrinaThwaite posted the chart upthread.

You're right, the "Semenya line" is the line that Semenya had to get to in order to be allowed to compete (but refused to do so, presumably because of a distaste for the feminising effects of the meds). just how far Semenya's unmedicated levels are to the right of that line has never been made public, but the answer must plainly be 'a long way', otherwise a very small quantity of meds, presumably with few side effects, would have been sufficient to get onside.

Sadly yes there are Reduxx put out a story about two XY boxers , I mean boxing , males boxing in the female category.

The IOC seems to have been, so far successfully, keeping the trans competitors out of the news but now the games have started they will appear to be obvious. I believe there will be quite a few more being found. I honestly think we might be looking at 10/20 but I hope I'm wrong...

Wouldn’t it be great if those athletes who know they are male and not female athletes, respected female athletes and didn’t compete in female events. To me, that is ‘spite’. Censuring women discussing the legitimacy of those who choose their success as male people over female athletes can be considered spiteful as well.

Oh joy. I'm sure of all us with PCOS are delighted to (yet again) be used as a 'gotcha' for males competing in a female sporting category.

As the graph up thread demonstrates, we (generally) have higher than average testosterone levels in the female range. Not the male range.

Linda Blade's take on it. She (rightly IMO) blames the sports authorities for not having strict consistent guidelines and requirements for sex verification.

According to this nytimes article, it appears that a few years ago the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) undertook due diligence and did the “gender testing.”
The result showed elevated “natural levels” of T, not disclosing why (XY DSD?), and would not allow Banda on their national team at that time.
But FAZ drew so much criticism for trying to protect the female category (zero back-up from #FIFA!) that they have now relented and allowed Banda to play in #Paris2024 .

Here’s the article: https://nytimes.com/athletic/3426458/2022/07/18/barbra-banda-womens-football/

It is sad, indeed, that global sports authorities have not established standardized sex verification screening so that such questionable cases are quickly dealt with. Absent this protocol, rumours and suspicions spread. It is horrible for the athlete in question. At the same time, the lack of decisive action potentially exposes female players to unsafe and unfair competition.

SUMMARY: It is weak, indecisive sport leadership that creates these types of “sad” situations. NOT those who question and call for verification.

https://x.com/coachblade/status/1817244899819012568

Yeah, been there and got the T-shirt! I was told on another forum that because I have PCOS I am only "technically" a woman due to high testosterone levels and therefore exactly the same as a transwoman.

And that I'm intersex.

You know, hiking up those very useful DSD figures for the "cause".
Can't have facts getting in the way can we?

He was about twice the age of the other competitors.

And even without winning he did damage by preventing an actual woman (from a much more disadvantage background than Hubbard) from qualifying for an Olympic place.

@Motorina according to this article: https://reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

Semenya's previous levels were recorded as 15.6 and 29.3 nmol/L

@IWillBeWaxingAnOwl just a sniff outside the female range then!!!

Oh God, I know. There seems to be a whole lot of 'loooook at meeeeee!!!'s on social media at the moment who seem to have decided that the new way to show how special and unique they are is to identify as 'intersex' because of their PCOS. As you say, it's a very useful way of bumping up those 'more common than redhead' bullshit claims.

Verity, the PCOS charity, has had to clarify that PCOS is not an 'intersex' condition.

And I can't believe how often I have to explain that women who have higher than average female levels of testosterone are not men. They are females with a female endocrine disorder.

Yes, agree.

Plus, to puffyisgood
it probably is very difficult for someone with healthy, functioning testes [...] to get down as low as 2.5 nmol/L and retain the full suite of male sporting advantages.
Bit nitpicky of me, I know, but it's not so much that they lose their intrinsic male advantage, it's more that they feel like crap because their bodies are being starved of what they need. And they may suffer a loss of libido as well.

Exactly. Only women and girls get Polycystic Ovary Syndrome.

And DSDs are the consequence of conditions which affect the development of a foetus/embryo in utero.

And only a small minority of DSDs result in ambiguous genitalia anyway.

That isn't what I was doing, but do go ahead.

'MessinaBloom · Yesterday 11:51

Can you explain how a female could exhibit male levels of testosterone?

Congenital diseases, even PCOS, some'

Righto, pal.

You brought PCOS into the discussion originally by suggesting that women with this condition could naturally produce male levels of testosterone. I hope you now accept that that is a misapprehension.

WaitWhat was replying to this comment:
HootyMcBooby · Today 10:35
Yeah, been there and got the T-shirt! I was told on another forum that because I have PCOS I am only "technically" a woman due to high testosterone levels and therefore exactly the same as a transwoman. [My bold.]

And that I'm intersex.

I think it is worth repeating this for our dear readers.

If Banda was female, including being a female with a DSD, Banda would have passed the sex verification test. However Banda has failed the test, so it is not spiteful to conclude that Banda is male with an undisclosed DSD that only male people can have.

Disclaimer: Women with PCOS that were offended by the suggestion that PCOS can higher levels of testosterone, please be assured of what was meant.

Could. Not all. Does not mean they are intersex, nor have a DSD, or are remotely less a woman.

We are discussing one person here.

Women with PCOS cannot produce male levels of testosterone.

Which is what you were claiming.

If the 'one person' you are referring to is a male with a DSD, then yes, PCOS was brought in as an unpleasant 'gotcha' as it's completely irrelevant.

I doubt if any woman with PCOS is offended by hearing that PCOS can cause higher levels of testosterone in women. It can. That's one of the symptoms.

What you suggested that PCOS can cause women to produce male levels of testosterone. That is different and simply untrue.

What offended them (I imagine) is the suggestion by some other people that PCOS symptoms made women with PCOS men, or practically men, or not women.

Women are not a hormone level. Women are adult human females.

Edited for grammar.

Waitwhat23
cross posting!