Tinkerbell syndrome, pronoun badges and trans existence

[Alltheprettyseahorses]

Inspired by some posts in a now-full thread:

Someone in the workplace who is trans is literally existing as trans in public. Yet we are told that disagreeing with accessories like pronoun badges means we don't want transpeople to exist in public.

So - must trans necessarily involve others and is it so fragile an identity that it will disappear like Tinkerbell if not constantly affirmed by everyone around the transperson? Is not noticing the badge transphobic? As most people, including those with specific protected characteristics and including most transpeople to be honest, don't wear badges announcing their identity, does this mean they don't exist in public?

I would argue the sole purpose of pronoun badges is to involve others in the validation of a specific type of trans identity whether they consent to this or not and even if they don't understand they have been allocated as having a supporting role in someone else's main-character life. But speaking on a personal level, I have my own priorities and interests - I find it an imposition to be subjected to the macroaggression of being expected to change my natural language processes for someone who will never be part of my concerns.

(I don't normally start threads so if I don't come back I'm not shaving my hairy feet, I've probably forgotten or something)

Yep - you can expect people to be polite but politeness is subjective.

Not being polite is not a sackable offence.

There's a significant difference between quietly choosing not to use wrong-sex pronouns as a matter of one's own conscience and actively harassing someone for their beliefs. No excuse for the latter.

Harassing can apply to anything. Continually asking/reminding/encouraging someone to use wrong-sex pronouns - might that not also be harassment?

Hmm. OK 👍
I think you've confused me with another poster. Or misunderstood me. But I really CBA.

And that works both ways does it not? Demanding people use those pronouns or else is active harassment of someone for their beliefs and their refusal to pander to the pronoun person.

There is no excuse for pronoun badges there is nothing polite or necessary about them.

‘Preferred pronouns’ are part of the liturgy of a religion I do not follow and do not believe in, that harmful and hateful to non-believers. I do not use them.

Demanding other people follow your belief system that has no basis in reality is not polite.

I just watched the video again as you were so adamant it was misrepresentation.

What I heard KJK say was:

1. she was in a bad mood and got triggered by the pronoun badge on a person she perceived to be a "boring woman" complete with some attributes she imagines this person to have and fairly personal comments about a binder
2. she challenged the person who directed her to complain. She said "fucking pronouns" on the way out
3. she went home and catastrophised about the receptionist reading the documents so phoned to ask them not to allow receptionist to look at documents
4. refused to use pronouns and got in an argument with the next staff member who she talked to
5. said "fuck you" to them
6. then broadcast the conversation with the practice manager including all the staff names and the practice name. Thus doxxing them.

I'm really struggling to see how what winky wrote was untrue, seems fair enough to me. And a good example of when protesting about pronouns is not OK.

If at work someone lost their shit with a colleague using preferred pronouns for someone else, insisted the colleague used the sex specific pronouns, said "fuck you" to them when they refused to comply and then refused to apologise, I would think that would be disciplinary in a lot of settings.

Not for the pronoun refusal. For being rude, aggressive and refusing to accept other people's equally valid positions.

What I heard KJK say

Unfortunately your prior posts means I stop here.

KJK isn't the point of this thread but I have to point out that as she is not an employee of the surgery there wouldn't be much point in a workplace disciplinary procedure against her. The pronoun position is not 'equally valid' either and shouldn't be treated as if it is.

It was an example of what I meant about how people could be arses at work, as some people seemed to be struggling with the idea that maybe someone "GC" could be disciplined for behaving badly, rather than being GC.

It was an example of what I meant about how people could be arses at work,

How can it be an example of someone being arsey at work? KJK wasn't at work.

Being an arse is a matter of perspective. I think people who insist on pronoun badges or introduce themselves with pronouns are being arses - on top of this, it can directly lead to inappropriate behaviour in the workplace or institution. How many women have we seen hounded out of their jobs by colleagues or students who should have been disciplined at the first sign of such behaviour?

PPs said kjk swore at the trans person.
She didn't.
How many times has that been clarified now?

"politely requesting" 😂 You don't know whether you're dealing with one of these charmers, and the pronoun pin is a red flag indicating a higher chance that you are.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb6OpRfyLFo

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/rPNp9pyVUP0

This, if I were in a situation where one of my staff was consistently compelling a certain form of speech from another member of staff, I'd see the problem as originating with the former and not the latter, and I'd pull them aside to tell them to wind their neck in.

🙄
Yes, she just said "fucking pronouns" on the way out after making her feelings clear to the receptionist, and later said "fuck you" to a surgery employee on the phone. Totally different. #sarcasm

Yes. That's what someone insisting everyone uses sex based pronouns around them is also doing

I don't think its desirable to have different rules for different sets of people. Either you can't compel speech - in which case badges are a request and people choose whether or not to comply. Or you can, in which case its up to the organisation if they are going full sex based or preferred pronouns.

Yes. That's what someone insisting everyone uses sex based pronouns around them is also doing
No. Refusing to deny reality is not compelling speech.
How bizarre your arguements are 🤔

Yes. That's what someone insisting everyone uses sex based pronouns around them is also doing

No, that's not true. I expect my employees to be able to speak the common language of my workplace, which is English, so that they can communicate with each other and with our clients. Not all of my staff and not all of my clients have english as their first language so it's important that the English we use is clear, concise and easily comprehended....especially when it comes to observable phenomena (the description of which all languages evolved in aid of).

That means that a beam is a beam, not a batten. A balustrade is a balustrade, not a baseboard.

This dedication to clarity also extends to when we are talking about people. If the site manager's a woman, she gets called she. We don't want to be calling her he because one of my Polish staff - or one of the English guys tbh - might not realise we're talking about the same person and that could be the difference between a well-built house and a botch job.

Clarity in language is important otherwise there's no point sharing a common language. You can't change the rules at your own whim and expect everyone else of all backgrounds and abilities to catch on. And in some working environments - healthcare for example - it could be genuinely dangerous.

CassieMaddox

Yes. That's what someone insisting everyone uses sex based pronouns around them is also doing

From the point of view of a staff member, rather than an employer, refusing to use special pronouns is not "insisting everyone uses sex-based pronouns around them".

English has sex-based pronouns. That is the norm. Someone displaying non-sex based pronouns is - at the very least - asking for the normal rules of grammar to be changed, or special made-up words to be used by other people.

Why? What right do they have?

Agree with this.

So - must trans necessarily involve others and is it so fragile an identity that it will disappear like Tinkerbell if not constantly affirmed by everyone around the transperson?

I don't know @Alltheprettyseahorses. And I doubt you will have your questions answered here.

I do know that my sense of womanhood is not so fragile that I fear erasure and annihilation when I see someone wearing an ID badge.🤷‍♀️

It's unlikely you'll ever even meet a trans person,

Hahahahaha.
No idea where you live, but I didn't realise the South Pole was now habitable.

TooBigformyBoots

I do know that my sense of womanhood is not so fragile that I fear erasure and annihilation when I see someone wearing an ID badge.🤷‍♀️

You have no idea what the issue is, do you?