The two-child benefit cap is social cleansing. Starmer must end it - Rosie Duffield

[IwantToRetire]

In an outspoken challenge to her leader, Labour’s Rosie Duffield says Tory rules penalising women with three or more children are worthy of The Handmaid’s Tale

Key points

• Labour MP condemns “anti-feminist and unequal” legislation, especially its “rape clause”
• Sir Keir Starmer has said scrapping the law is unaffordable at present
• More than a dozen backbenchers are forcing the issue with an amendment to the King’s Speech
• Like her friend JK Rowling, Duffield has previously attacked Labour’s record on women

The two-child limit is a feminist issue. It is a heinous piece of legislation and the reason above all others that I was driven to stand as a member of parliament. With the introduction of such a sinister and overtly sexist law, I was propelled towards Westminster to stop it.

article continues at https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/rosie-duffield-mp-two-child-benefit-cap-scncpn9dd

and at https://archive.ph/5On4a

No one is stopping someone having a third child. It’s just that They’re have to be aware that they won’t be getting more benefits for it.

we need a drivers license to drive a car, yet jump through no hoops to become parents...personal responsibility is quite important ...

“I've known women have different fathers so get pregnant after a relationship end so they're not lonely on weekends.”

I went to school with a girl that got pregnant at 16. It was before the housing crisis and she got a 3 bedroom council house. She then had another child and her 34 year old single-mother also had another child because 'it would be nice to have kids the same age'. This resulted in the local primary school having an uncle and nephew in the same class.

Why are we enabling this level of fecklessness?

I'm feeling very uncomfortable with all this rhetoric that financially-poor mothers with more than two children are "feckless" or stupid or have poor judgement etc etc. There are many contributing factors that could have placed those individual mothers in that position.

But regardless of all that, Rosie is thinking about the kids not just the mums. The kids deserve a good start in life. Those kids could grow up to be very useful in society - they could be your carer or your dc's teacher or bus driver or solicitor or environmental researcher etc etc.

Or... do you think they won't be useful contributors to society? Because they come from scummy antecedents? Because that's what people are thinking deep down, aren't they? See the social cleansing yet?

I'm still with Rosie.

I do think if the second DC is a twin or a triplet the 2 DC cap shouldn't apply to them. Otherwise it's fair enough. Anyone can have as many kids as they like but the tax payer won't be paying for them.

It's not child benefit it's benefits like UC that pay extra for an additional DC. It stops at 2 ATM for DC born after a certain year.

I don’t think it does. I think multiple births are exempt from the cap.

@Mumoftwo1316
I was about to type my response out but I think you said it more succinctly than I would have.
👏

Why are we enabling this level of fecklessness?

It isn't always "fecklessness". A lot of it is about male irresponsibility, knowing because it is all around them that they can just walk away and as the old saying goes, the woman is left holding the baby.

Some women, not just young women, get into relationships that are based on coercive control, and saying that now that we have contraception there is no need for a woman to get pregnant unless she wants to is just rubbish.

And like it or not, not everyone agrees with abortion.

And like it or not, unlike the PP who worked her way and out of her childhood of poverty not all have the strength of character or access to services to make that change.

I know a woman who has 4 children ( 3 x m, 1 x f), from 2 different abusive partners. Having lived for most of their childhood and teenage live in a 2 bedroom house (so this notion that you get pregnant and just get a bigger house is very, very rare) she now has a house with enough bedrooms, but is now being intimidated by the 2 older boys and has no confidence or idea of how to change things.

I think this and other examples, and the primary one of fathers just disappearing is why Rosie Duffield is saying its a feminist issue.

Because it isn't just about the children and £800 a year, it is how totalling crushing and exhausting it is for many women.

And as astonished that on a feminist forum anyone would suggest that women who have been driven over the edge should be further humilated by being told we dont trust you with money, so we will give you a voucher.

If only this level of hostility was directed by those who misuse our taxes, all the appalling waste in hospitals by over paid management.

it is really, really perverse that so many think that women should pay the price.

Is it because in fact some are angry at having to restrict the number of children they have for economic reasons, or just feel so self righteous for sticking with 2 children?

It's not stopping people having children, I live in a deprived area , for whatever reason people are still having 3,4,5 children it's just pushed these children into poverty

With poverty comes county lines, anti social behaviour eg theft/ burglary getting into gangs at really young ages

There needs to be more support for young people, our local secondary has just been taken over by an academy and has gone from a supportive , pretty nice environment to something that feels like a youth offenders institute , and even though they have children there from poorer neighbourhoods like where I am they didn't have huge issues with anti social behaviour in school because they treated children as individuals and supported them, not anymore!

We are lucky that we do still have a youth club but that's only because of donations

The tory government took away any sort of support for young people as well as sure start centres , we need to be investing in communities like mine to help children to become the best they can be

Not cutting it to the bone like they did , and I'm not even going to go into what they've done to mh services for children

But there was money for higher earners to have more support with childcare so 🤷

I hope they don’t lift it for the sake of the children.

Help children in other ways.

I do wish all primary aged kids got free school meals and fruit at break time though.

Also, all of you advocating families should only have 2 children what is you solution to the economic crisis this is going to cause the UK?

Is it that you agree that the UK should have as many immigrant workers as our needed to keep our economy growing?

I posted the link up thread about how the UK cant afford a future with this low birth rate, which is from econmists.

As a PP said, how to we solve this futue issue which will blight the live of your children.

If their aren't enough of them, they will never be able to retire and the country wont be able to afford them having a pension.

Why? They already have fsm through infant school, why do parents who work need tax payers funding their children's meals through juniors too?

And what about secondary school children ?

Poorer families receive greater support though. For example instead of tax free childcare people on UC get 85% of childcare covered and a child element on top of the basic (I think for each child).

Unlike child benefit it's targeted to those trying to pay for their kids by working.

I agree with previous posters. Having more than 2 children isnt a right, but an affordability issue and a choice.

We are talking 20 quid a week. Nothing in comparison to the costs of raising a child, but a big burden to the tax payers.

Instead of removing the cap, let’s use the extra money to support the existing children , improve schools, etc.

Also, if the cap is removed, I feel sorry for the squeezed middle, who will have to pay more in taxes to fund this, and therefore will be limiting their family size as they won’t be able to afford their own children… .

Nobody is forcing a two child policy. Starmer is not Mao.

Families are at liberty to have more than two children: The government isn’t going to subside this.

If families are getting smaller - that’s down to the economy - something the government needs to fix. Let’s give them a chance to do that.

Ignore child benefit. That's a different puddle of poop to slop through.

Actual benefits. UC

Challenging the cap is fine apart if you decide to move to a contribution based system.

Parents who don't work have children with worse outcomes than those who work.

How do you know that these extra children will be paying tax members and not more people on benefits like their parents? The latter being more likely. Other people stop at two because that's what they can afford. These arguments make me so angry as people should only have the children they can afford, as it's always the children who suffer due to their selfish and stupid parents

No. The cap should stay. IMHO. Of course people should limit there family size. The increase in global population is simply terrifying.

I was a teacher and saw some DC were sent into school with very little food. These parents worked so were earning money. Maybe not all parents prioritise their DC lunches. A poster up thread said her Mum always had money for cigarettes but she and her siblings often went hungry and very rarely got any fruit at all. There are sadly more of these DC than you may realise. Would you really grudge hungry kids a free lunch especially as that might be the only hot meal that DC gets that day? Giving all DC a free meal takes away the stigma of free school meals.

I think free meals are a great idea, then at least you can guarantee a child gets at least 5 decent meals a week, assuming the parents can be bothered taking them to school of course. If there is extra money, then spend it on this, don't incentivise people to have more children than they can afford. I've seen it too much, it's the children who suffer.

So we should provide fsm because some well off parents don't provide what they should for their children, but we shouldn't be providing uc to support the children of parents who have 3 or more dc ?

That's about right

I dont see why it is my job to pay for other people's children.

Erm, immigration. I want more migrant friendly policies and a steady stream of healthy, fit, young migrant workers to plug the labour gap.

We really don’t need people to have more babies. That’s actually just creating more pressure on the system. Homegrown citizens need more resources and take out more than they put in. Migrant labour is superior in all ways. It’s disgusting how hostile the UK has now become to foreign workers and the end of freedom of movement for EU citizens was a crying shame.

And your argument is flawed.

Look at the nordics- generous benefits and family friendly policies. No caps on number of kids.

…..Their birth rate is the same as ours.