Because this never happens NHS nurses sue over transgender policy that ‘puts them at risk’.

[LakesideInn]

NHS nurses sue over transgender policy that ‘puts them at risk’.

A fully intact male colleague calling himself Rose was allowed to use the open plan female changing rooms in a hospital. He said he was trying to get his girlfriend pregnant, walked around with genitals viable though underwear and when the nurses complained they were told they needed to get educated and compromise.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/9f995274-a6f8-4da9-8f19-401440ceeb08?shareToken=a33bc4bfddc33558475e4821a9fbf30f

Thank you. I am certainly not offended - it seemed clear to me that you were doing your best to avoid offence, and I appreciate that. You have given an interesting and different perspective.

WEll 26 female nurses are all trying to change in one disabled toilet. Presumably the man in question could have just used that toilet instead which would have solved the problem for the women and also prevented a lot of disabled people being inconvenienced by a factor of 26.

Great post upthread @Helleofabore

However, what you don’t seem to realise is that we have also had a number of female people on this forum who have told us that they absolutely understand that their decisions and body modifications may cause distress to other female people. Many of them have experienced sexual trauma themselves. They make hard decisions to find alternative solutions if they don’t wish to use the male toilets. Which they may choose not to due to their own trauma and/or because they respect male people’s needs to have single sex spaces too

These female people have the absolute right to use female single sex spaces, but they often don't because they care about other women. Unlike male trans people, as a general rule who don't have the right to go into female single sex spaces but do anyway and don't give a tiny fuck about the harm they're causing female people (notable exceptions include Miranda Yardley - there are transwomen who see female people as human, sadly quite few and far between). The irony is off the scale - they claim to be women but act like the most toxic misogynists abusers around.

This man must know he's making women uncomfortable and he must like doing that or he'd be the one changing in the disabled toilet.

It would be an understatement to say that my mother wasn't exactly happy about my father's transition, like myself and my brother but there was nothing that any of us could do or say to change anything. My parents did remain friends but living separately.

I can sympathise with some of what you and others have said but I don't wish to get into expressing my personal opinions too much as that was not my intention of posting here.

Red flags 🚩 for his patients if this is how he's treating his colleagues.

Yes.

I think that's what I can't get past, we explain again and again about how a male bodied presence can make women feel uncomfortable in these situations and these people keep on doing it. Sorry but that says a hell of a lot about their character.

Don't apologise. We all know exactly what you mean and you're absolutely right.

Typical Malaga airport behaviour.

I think people who see themselves/identify as being 'progressive' imagine that those who are more conservative are just retrograde scaredy cats who are fearful of change, and who need to get over themselves.

It is all predicated on a vision of society and history which is linear, and which is moving to wards a predetermined point that is 'progressive' in nature. Progressive means fewer and fewer boundaries or firm demarcations; more openness and 'fluidity'; predicated on the individual being able to do whatever they choose.

Progressive also means, to an extent, an element of trans humanism, with people moving beyond their biological reality. Biology is seen as confining and restricting and to be escaped from or overcome. Biology, especially for women, is seen as a inhibitive prison.

Of course all of this is based on ideas, theories, idealism.......ignoring the fact that all healthy organism requitere boundaries and definition in order to maintain individual identity and self protection. And that we live on Planet Earth in a body.

Socities also need to be able to define themselves and protect themselves too. too much oppenness and permeability threaten stability and established values....hence the rise of the right in Europe in the light of so much migration.

The message being given to these women is that they must undress and provide their body to this male as proof of their submission to his identity.

And that women who will not submit and provide him with their physical selves obediently will be punished.

And that the primary right and ownership of a woman's space is a man. Because the unequal power of all this is entirely on a binary, sexed basis.

If this is not overturned by law, then men have more rights than women, with those rights being to use women as a resources without women having the right of consent, and all spaces are in fact men's spaces, but women will be permitted to use them if they will provide themselves and their undressed bodies/peeing etc to be useful to men in those spaces. Women who fail to or are unable to provide this service will be excluded from all public provisions, spaces and resources in punishment.

And yes, no decent person of either sex would think this right.

Like this.

https://x.com/okaybiology/status/1807447068262244364?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

Female modesty and self protection is viewed by progressives and ideologues as prudish and inhibited and oh so old fashioned. Women should just loosen up. Lots of shoulds and oughts and moral judgments.

Yes. The NHS trust seems to not bother with safeguarding or bothering to not try and discriminate against 3 protected characteristics (sex, religion, disability).

If female staff say they're being sexually harassed you don't leave them in the situation where they're being sexually harassed FOR A YEAR and tell them they have to suck it up. That surely MUST be illegal? Fine, you do an 'investigation' just in case it's not true (there are 26 nurses saying this, knowing male behaviour,and the fact this man hasn't removed himself to the disabled toilet, it's vanishingly unlikely this is not true) but in the meantime you safeguard those female staff AND PATIENTS.

In this case doing so would also improve hygiene and efficiency. Instead they're leaving women in a situation where they feel they have no choice but to change in the disabled toilet, or not change properly (wearing two layers of clothing) or feel terrified and uneasy at work the whole time.

Obviously children aren't being murdered but the failure to safeguard by management is just like Letby. As soon as there are reasonable questions about someone's conduct YOU ACT TO SAFEGUARD THOSE BEING HARMED - in this case female staff and patients - regardless of whether or not that person is guilty. You don't say 'oh well we don't definitively know they're a predatory abuser' and leave them in post to do the same harm over and over.

I do not consent to my taxes being spent on paying staff who are DELIBERATELY abusing female nurses and not safeguarding them nor patients. I suspect there will be stories that eventually come out about patients being similarly abused, probably vulnerable ones who can't fight back. There should be criminal convictions over this.

It's OK, you don't have to express all your personal opinions, you've shared your experience. But you didn't answer my question about one of your opinons - what makes your father typical of "transsexuals" and Emma Thomas' father (and the assorted transwomen who passed through their home while she was a teen) the exceptions?

Well to be fair, Emma Thomas' father sounds extremely disordered and narcissistic. But there were plenty of others, less extreme but not at all people who could empathise with women or care about the effects of their behaviour on any woman or child. For all that they wanted to be women. In this interview s she observed that the transsexuals she met liked and could empathise with women less than other men could.

So we have to treat trans people with respect. But we don’t say that about women……we just say women’s safe spaces. What about saying we have to treat women with respect and respects trans peoples safe spaces. Let trans people have third places ie safe spaces.

Mr Streeting, why does 'respect' to male people with trans identities require women to take their clothes off in front of them? How is that 'respecting' them?

she observed that the transsexuals she met liked and could empathise with women less than other men.

If you read the transwidows thread, this is more normal than not. Most transwomen like and empathise less with women than normal men in my experience and observation. See also @Helleofabore's point that a lot of transmen will self exclude from female toilets (even though entitled to use them) because they can empathise with and care about other women. There's a pattern here.

There are some transsexuals who do listen to women, I mentioned Miranda Yardley upthread.

Ironically it's the transwomen / transsexuals who show themselves to care about and empathise with women by excluding themselves from female spaces who are the ones that I personally would probably be happy to share a space with. A clearly labelled mixed sex space though, because I don't get to make that decision for all other women and there are still women who NEED single sex spaces to be able to participate in public life / attend hospital appointments / go swimming etc.

Third spaces solve all problems, women who're happy to go to the toilets with their transsexual or transwomen friends - have away, you have a mixed sex space to use AND the many women excluded completely by making single sex spaces mixed sex by deception and stealth are no longer excluded.

Win win, unless the intent is to abuse and use unconsenting women. Actions speak louder than words. It's a bit rich claiming to be a marginalised vulnerable person when acting like the worst kind of abusive narcissist with no thought of the impact on others at all.

@PermanentTemporary Yes you are right - no surgery requirement whatsoever for a GRC @GrumpyPanda advised due to a a European court judgement. (not that it makes any difference if a man has a certificate- you just see a man!).

@SparklyGreyShaker I noticed like other Cots I know you you don't pretend your father is your mum childrenoftransitioners.org/2023/04/10/paperwork/

If you'd like to chat with others who had a shared experience, you could get in touch with the Cots group via their website. They are a friendly gang whose website articles are written by different people, all of whom stay private except the group founder Emma. (She is very brave as unfortunately women/ girls who speak up about their dads not being women or the safeguarding issues get death/ rape threats)

AmaryllisNightAndDay

I'm not sure that I have expressed the opinion that I believe my late father to be "typical of transexuals" other than "transexuals are born like it". However the limited number of transexuals that I met in the 1980's all seemed to follow a similar pattern.

The one exception was the one that managed to get on hormone treatment in a very short space of time from his first consultation, then after being on hormones for a few months, decided that he didn't want to to proceed with the transition, all in a space of less than a year. It was an example of why these things shouldn't be rushed.

When my parents were together after my father's "transition", occasionally, over the years, they were sometimes mistaken as a "lesbian couple" (with absolutely no disrespect to the lesbian or gay community). We never enlightened people as it was no-one else's business but I did find it slightly amusing.

I think one of the things I find most depressing is this absolute belief by so many men and women that a man who does not wish to use the men's facilities/has feelings or needs/does not identify as a man, therefore has absolute primacy and right to remove women's facilities for women and commandeer them for his own purposes.

And that what happens to the women as a result is absolutely irrelevant. To him, to many people.

It just makes so clear that all spaces are mens, all rights are mens, men are in all ways the master and women may have what men give them until the minute that it is no longer convenient. And what happens to them after that? Well it's not the man's problem is it? It's not bothering him.

It’s like a scene from a carry on film.

Man simpering and gleeful as women around him try change clothes. Obviously in that genre the women would giggle, squeal and try to cover their essentials with their hands, while still looking very attractive. Because, ya know, male gaze.

Why would being a lesbian amusing? Did your parents go along with this? Was your mum happy to 'now be a lesbian'?