Because this never happens NHS nurses sue over transgender policy that ‘puts them at risk’.

[LakesideInn]

NHS nurses sue over transgender policy that ‘puts them at risk’.

A fully intact male colleague calling himself Rose was allowed to use the open plan female changing rooms in a hospital. He said he was trying to get his girlfriend pregnant, walked around with genitals viable though underwear and when the nurses complained they were told they needed to get educated and compromise.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/9f995274-a6f8-4da9-8f19-401440ceeb08?shareToken=a33bc4bfddc33558475e4821a9fbf30f

It's sort of amazing that so many people are willing to gaslight themselves into the doublethink of 'vulnerable man, needs to use women's space / not use men's space' and not recognise 'vulnerable woman, needs single sex space'. And not notice the huge and obvious conflict.

A third space is the only answer, not saying 'fuck all those vulnerable women we don't care if they have no way to participate in public life at all' like it's Afghanistan / the Victoria era.

It's also a fact that a large proportion of the 51% of women will need single sex spaces for various reasons so the number of people in the 'vulnerable woman, needs single sex space' group is VASTLY, VASTLY bigger than the male group.

The only possible reason for not seeing both sides is if you think women's lives don't matter and that women don't deserve human rights.

I am sorry @SparklyGreyShaker but why do you believe that your father is more typical of transwomen in general than father of (say) Emma Thomas (founder of the "children of transitioners" group)? He also transitioned several decades ago while she was a child.

There are several different forms of transsexuality and people can have very different motives for permanent physical transition. Motives can also include extreme narcissism and/or very powerful sexual motives, neither of which have ever been barriers to physical transition or to a gender recognition certificate. And that's quite apart from transvestism.

It really is as simple as - if you think transwomen should be in the women's then you don't care about women's lives and you don't think women deserve human rights.

Third spaces are possible. There is no way to include transwomen in women's spaces and not exclude far larger numbers of women than there are transwomen in the entire country.

It's a male supremacist movement because it puts the vulnerabilities (for some as others have noted for some it's actually a fetish) of a tiny group of males above the vulnerabilities of a much, much larger group of females.

PS you might find this book helpful to understand the connections and the differences between different aspects of gender dysphoria.

And the nurses case is a prime example of this. Women feeling scared, women feeling uncomfortable, religious women facing discrimination and having to wear two layers of clothes to their and their patients detriment.

I'd really like to know the staff turnover of those that use that changing room. I bet it's high. Because the most common thing is for women to self exclude silently, because women are scared of male violence and creepy behaviour and doubly so when it is enabled by bullying via HR and management.

Presumably the patients who want single sex care but get a bloke suffer even more than this.

I note that you have consistently used “my father”. I wonder whether your father was happy for you to think of him as your father. One of the recent changes is that many trans people demand that everyone, including close family, refer to them with a new name and with “gender -based” rather than “sex-based” pronouns. This is the case with my son, who wishes to be referred to as “she”, “her” and so on. I am told off for referring to my son; apparently I am a bigot if I don’t “accept her” for “who she is”.

This, to me, is intolerable. The implication is that I must deny my son’s existence and accept a daughter, which makes a mockery of our whole family history. I cannot now refer to my son, even when reminiscing about his childhood, without the accusations of bigotry.

I would be interested to hear whether your experience was similar or different - though of course you do not need to reply if you would prefer not to.

I have wondered whether I could ever change my thinking and see him as a woman. This seems very unlikely to me; I am autistic and it is very hard for me to pretend and be in denial of what seems to me to be obvious verifiable fact.

No pun intended, but it has taken real balls for those nurses to come forward like that.

You seem dismissive of the harm that any male person above about 8 years old can cause in accessing female only spaces in your leveraging female transgender people the way you are doing. Their experiences are not to be weaponised in this way to wedge in male people into female spaces.

We understand that some of these female trans people have treatment that means they may more successfully ‘pass’ as a man. Some may even adopt a misogynistic attitude to pass or testosterone may make them more aggressive etc.

However, what you don’t seem to realise is that we have also had a number of female people on this forum who have told us that they absolutely understand that their decisions and body modifications may cause distress to other female people. Many of them have experienced sexual trauma themselves. They make hard decisions to find alternative solutions if they don’t wish to use the male toilets. Which they may choose not to due to their own trauma and/or because they respect male people’s needs to have single sex spaces too.

For instance, they thoroughly research gender neutral options before travelling so they are planned.

Us saying that male people are not respecting female people’s needs in using female single sex spaces, does not mean that female transgender people who have made irreversible decisions to modify their body will also be using female single sex spaces. Although, by rights they can. Them being female and all. That is your absolutist approach and it feels rather threatening and manipulative whether you intended it to be or not. Whether you understand this or not, telling female people, well if you don’t expect male people who have had treatment into your spaces, then you will have to have female people with body modifications that give them some male
body cues there, is a tactic extreme transgender rights activists use regularly.

It has a chilling effect in some ways. However, we also know through direct conversations that those activists don’t seem to understand that many of those very people, the female transgender people they are effectively weaponising, do not wish to cause distress. They certainly understand very well the ramifications of their own decisions on other female people.

It seems your father never understood, or maybe just didn’t care, about the ramifications of your father’s choices to female people. And they were choices your father made. Both the body modifications and the decision of accessing what should have been female only facilities.

It is a falsehood to try to make the situation symmetrical. Ie. If these males have to stay out of female single sex spaces then female people have to accept female people with body modifications in which also may be distressing. When actually, the truth is it is not symmetrical.

The presence of any person with male body cues from either being a male person or from extreme body modifications may cause female people distress. This is understood by many female people, it is not something we are ignorant of. many of us have already had those discussions directly with the female people involved.

I don’t know if they rolled over but they lost it and did not appeal.

I used "my father/he" here for the purposes of clarity but when my father changed to what he believed was a woman I referred to him by his female name and she/her when speaking directly to her, with her or in her company. Other times when my father wasn't present I could refer to him as a him or a her and sometimes switching between the 2 genders in the same conversation. It all depended on who the conversation was with and what was being discussed.

I have tried to give some sort of insight of how my late father dealt with being a transexual and went about going through the process of transition which he started more than 40 years ago and also having gender realignment surgery. I have also tried to avoid expressing any personal opinion on the matter and I am sorry if anyone feels offended by any of my posts or comments.

@SparklyGreyShaker. Grayson Perry has been quoted as saying "what's the difference between a transvestite and a transexual? A year". Sooner or later men many of these men want to live full time with the woman inside. There is no special difference.

Your father caused problems for a lot of women over those 40 years. You are here talking about him as man, you can be sure the majority of the women whose privacy and dignity he chose to impose himself on also saw a man, one behaving badly by invading their privacy and with absolutely no consideration at all other than for his own desires. Of course using the male facilitate was an option. He didn't want to, men use female facilities and the females in them as "transition" tools in the same way as he used the 2,000 pound surgery.

Why isn’t it more difficult for the men who want to take over spaces to try and do so? Why aren’t we making them take their case to court so they can argue in plain sight that they want access to women’s spaces and have to justify exactly why that is.

That is the question isn’t it. Why is it women who have to be so unkind and ‘undignified’ (to use Starmers words) unravelling this mess.

It is interesting you mention that electric shock treatment which as you say was used for a variety of treatments.

Look at Sylvia Plath for example.
It is worth pointi g this out in case it is seen as being just horrific conversion therapy for transsexuals or gay people.

Women got all sorts of horror treatment including lobotomies for being women/hysterical

Is there a crowdfunding site does anyone know

I was a young woman in my first job at around the time your father was transitioning. I was naive and could not explain the discomfort I felt about being in a female changing room with a person who looked at me all the time. I was very vulnerable for other reasons at the time, but luckily the older women explained why they got changed elsewhere, leaving the two of us alone. I felt deceived and realised why I was uncomfortable. I don’t think this particular man would have been violent , but he certainly acted entitled to the view of me changing. I got the hell out. Women should not have to do that. It didn’t matter whether he had had bits removed or not.

I actually think that some/many trans identified women continue to use the women's facilities, for obvious reasons......

Third spaces are now the most obvious solution, given the rapid acceleration and embedding of gender identity theory in our society. This seems the most obvious practical solution to protecting everyone's feelings and needs for dignity and privacy.

You didn't mention your mother, or whether you have any siblings - and how they might have felt about your father's transition?

@SparklyGreyShaker I'm not sure why your father (ie a man) is being brought into this discussion.

This is about nurses who are being forced to share space with a man who thinks he is more important to them because of what he wants/thinks.

None of us know if this is how your father felt about using women's facilities.

Also, no woman 'changes into a man' and no man 'changes into a woman' - hormones and cosmetic surgery simply change the outward appearance.

nothing that a family member or friend can say will have any effect on how a transexual chooses to behave with regard to their condition.

Someone whose behaviour isn't affected by anything their friends or family say isn't going to change their behaviour because it distresses women in a changing room.

And that's the problem.

This blog from the Legal Feminist goes through the Sheffield case if anyone is interested.

www.legalfeminist.org.uk/tag/forstater/

Those who are interested in financially supporting the nurses' campaign, the organisation Christian Concern is supporting (and I suspect, maybe funding) them. I'm sure you could get in touch via that org.

I feel sorry for the trans person who had been named in this, who hadn't been given the option of a third space. I also absolutely support the women who are taking a stand to protect single sex spaces. Third spaces are the obvious answer. The NHS is so skint at the mo, and access to capital funding (E.g. For estates changes) is incredibly restricted, which makes doing the obvious very difficult. I work in the NHS and I'm aware that one department has set up curtained cubicle changing spaces for trans colleagues. It's not ideal but at least there is an acknowledgement of separation.

I hope that cubicle is in the sex-appropriate changing room

This is outrageous. Is this ‘Rose’ character a nurse? He sounds dodgy as hell.

@Chariothorses in the UK the process of obtaining a GRC has never required surgery. The 2004 GRA was the first such Act in the world that did not require such surgery, principally due to the lobbying of Press for Change. A very skilled and farsighted group of lobbyists.

The loss of the Goodwin case was what led to the GRA - basically the UK government were under sustained legal pressure to create a route to legal transition. However, the Goodwin case was won on the basis of privacy - that people who resembled the opposite sex in all respects (ie who had had surgery) should have the right to keep their actual sex entirely private.

I'm someone who doesn't believe anyone can change sex, and I don't think transsexuals are a separate group subject to different rules. But I do think a lot of people do see someone who has had their penis removed as likely to cause less distress in women's spaces. I think that's naive, in fact, but I respect that others don't agree.

My understanding is that this "treatment", at one time was given for a wide variety of conditions and involved an "electrode/s" placed on one's head with varying degrees of electrical current/voltage being passed through one's brain. I don't believe that there is any evidence of any sort of benefit of using this device but my understanding is that it was extremely painful for anyone undergoing this form of "treatment".

ECT (Electro Convulsive Therapy) has been used successfully for decades, though I daresay it has been abused in some cases, because such things do happen, unfortunately.
It was the only treatment that cured the profound depression that afflicted me after treatment for postnatal psychosis. It was administered under general anaesthetic, in a quiet and pleasant setting (NHS) and three sessions cured me. It was astonishing. I did suffer some short term memory issues, and mild to moderate headaches, but these resolved within weeks. I was able to resume study for my degree within weeks. I understand that it’s generally useful for persistent PND like mine.
ECT has had a very bad press, particularly via fiction (One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest). Consequently, many people see it as inhumane and ineffective. I resisted the idea myself at first, but would have it again if necessary (unlikely now I’m old). I try to take every opportunity to disperse the false and unhelpful myths around this treatment.

A more up to date type of treatment available now is Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), but ECT is still a treatment of last resort.