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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

WOMAN'S HOUR TODAY!

308 replies

heldinadream · 18/06/2024 09:12

Today's WH is as follows - Woman's Hour Election Debate. In a special extended 90 minute programme, Nuala McGovern hosts the Woman's Hour Election Debate. Senior women from the main political parties of Great Britain outline their priorities for women and answer your questions. Taking part are: Scottish National Party spokesperson for Consular Affairs and International Engagement Hannah Bardell; Reform UK candidate Maria Bowtell; Green Party spokesperson for Housing and Communities Ellie Chowns; Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats Daisy Cooper; Conservative Minister of State for Disabled People, Health and Work Mims Davies; Labour Party Chair and Shadow Secretary for Women and Equalities Anneliese Dodds, and Plaid Cymru’s Westminster Leader Liz Saville Roberts.

Questions via text 84844 or WhatsApp - 03700100444

I intend to send something like the following - Given that you are all designated senior women politicians, speaking as such on Woman's Hour, can we possibly decide an answer to the question - What is a woman?

Send in yours!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
DanceTheDevilBackIntoHisHole · 18/06/2024 12:06

MalagaNights · 18/06/2024 12:01

I agree on the policies that need to be addressed.

But I do see women rejecting even the notion that supporting mothers to be with their children for longer should be discussed.
The barefoot and pregnant trope gets trotted out immediately.

Fair. And that was me who said it. It's the 'women SHOULD have more children ' that made me say it though - it does raise the trope.

Aussieland · 18/06/2024 12:10

crumpet · 18/06/2024 11:00

These were women. On Woman’s Hour. Asked a question about women. But talked about trans instead.

Maybe because so many people (including most of this forum) are OBSESSED with talking about trans women and which toilets they use and insist on flooding interviews with questions about them.

And then blaming politicians for talking about them. MAYBE they should be allowed to focus on the bigger issues like child poverty, domestic violence, education, health, Tory MPs sexually assaulting people and then it might be a bit clearer. If all you ask about is trans rights then that’s what they will have to talk about. Take a look in the mirror. Trans women (and men) are trying to live their life under tough circumstances and it seems many people just want to punish them even more.

Also you do realise if you want people to use the toilets associated with sex they were assigned at birth you are going to have bearded men wandering into the women’s toilets and vulnerable women being faced with the men’s toilets.

TigathaChristie · 18/06/2024 12:13

@Aussieland - the question wasn't about Trans rights. It was about the definition of a woman.

It's a bit like asking about the flight to Paris to be given information about the boat trip to Spain.

Plus, we're not stupid. Something the politicians should remember.

Hepwo · 18/06/2024 12:14

DanceTheDevilBackIntoHisHole · 18/06/2024 12:06

Fair. And that was me who said it. It's the 'women SHOULD have more children ' that made me say it though - it does raise the trope.

But to quote you, this is something "they seem to believe".

I have just checked their manifesto and it's not there.

SerafinasGoose · 18/06/2024 12:14

DanceTheDevilBackIntoHisHole · 18/06/2024 11:55

I don't think those choices raise the anger of feminists.

I think the lack of support and how vulnerable women are left if they make that choice is what fruatrates feminists.

Women working part time and taking a hit on pension and future earning prospects. Women also taking on the majority of caring responsibilities and housework as well as working part time. Women losing their jobs or promotion because their partners can't or won't take time off for ill children because their job is the full-time one they rely on. It all leaves women vulnerable and that's hard to see. We need better protection for women on all fronts for this to be a true choice for families.

A balanced view on this issue is so refreshing to read. Thank you.

We need more of this kind of discussion. About the conditions under which women make the decisions we make. About the real, practical implications these involve. About the fact that society is still set up primarily to benefit the interests of men, and to level the playing field. About stripping away the assumption that particular tasks are the domain of a particular gender.

Threads full of people taking personal affront because another woman has taken a different lifestyle decision to their own are a treadmill to nowhere.

Men don't have a hang-up about other men's divisions of paid and domestic labour in this way, and there's a very good reason for that.

TigathaChristie · 18/06/2024 12:16

And how are trans people living their lives under tough circumstances. Give me strength. Their "issues" have been given more oxygen than anything else.

Imagine if disabled people had been given the same publicity. FFS!!

Hepwo · 18/06/2024 12:16

Aussieland · 18/06/2024 12:10

Maybe because so many people (including most of this forum) are OBSESSED with talking about trans women and which toilets they use and insist on flooding interviews with questions about them.

And then blaming politicians for talking about them. MAYBE they should be allowed to focus on the bigger issues like child poverty, domestic violence, education, health, Tory MPs sexually assaulting people and then it might be a bit clearer. If all you ask about is trans rights then that’s what they will have to talk about. Take a look in the mirror. Trans women (and men) are trying to live their life under tough circumstances and it seems many people just want to punish them even more.

Also you do realise if you want people to use the toilets associated with sex they were assigned at birth you are going to have bearded men wandering into the women’s toilets and vulnerable women being faced with the men’s toilets.

What are the tough circumstances men who cross dress are living in? Eddie Izzard for example or Grayson Perry?

TigathaChristie · 18/06/2024 12:17

PS - no one's sex is assigned at birth. Basic biology. Primary school biology.

SerafinasGoose · 18/06/2024 12:18

TigathaChristie · 18/06/2024 12:13

@Aussieland - the question wasn't about Trans rights. It was about the definition of a woman.

It's a bit like asking about the flight to Paris to be given information about the boat trip to Spain.

Plus, we're not stupid. Something the politicians should remember.

They'd do well to watch and learn from what happened to Nicola Sturgeon and Penny Mordaunt. Her dogged stance on this particular issue is likely what cost her the last Tory leadership race.

But a week is a long time in politics.

borntobequiet · 18/06/2024 12:23

Maybe because so many people (including most of this forum) are OBSESSED with talking about trans women and which toilets they use and insist on flooding interviews with questions about them.

But they don’t ask such questions. They ask how women’s right to access single sex spaces and services can be preserved, questions that are currently both reasonable and necessary.

DanceTheDevilBackIntoHisHole · 18/06/2024 12:24

Hepwo · 18/06/2024 12:14

But to quote you, this is something "they seem to believe".

I have just checked their manifesto and it's not there.

No, She explicitly said it. I hadn't read the manifesto at that point but she explicitly stated that women should have more children (sentence ended in something about them training the children to work on roles that have shortages, which was also odd).

Peskysquirrel · 18/06/2024 12:25

Also you do realise if you want people to use the toilets associated with sex they were assigned at birth you are going to have bearded men wandering into the women’s toilets and vulnerable women being faced with the men’s toilets.

Whut?
The bearded men are the ones that need to stay out.
Women are welcome in the women's toilets obviously.

Upsidetriangle · 18/06/2024 12:31

Peskysquirrel · 18/06/2024 12:25

Also you do realise if you want people to use the toilets associated with sex they were assigned at birth you are going to have bearded men wandering into the women’s toilets and vulnerable women being faced with the men’s toilets.

Whut?
The bearded men are the ones that need to stay out.
Women are welcome in the women's toilets obviously.

I think that poster is referring to females who have taken testosterone.

I think most people think the ideal solution is gender neutral toilets plus single toilets.

Upsidetriangle · 18/06/2024 12:32

Aussieland · 18/06/2024 12:10

Maybe because so many people (including most of this forum) are OBSESSED with talking about trans women and which toilets they use and insist on flooding interviews with questions about them.

And then blaming politicians for talking about them. MAYBE they should be allowed to focus on the bigger issues like child poverty, domestic violence, education, health, Tory MPs sexually assaulting people and then it might be a bit clearer. If all you ask about is trans rights then that’s what they will have to talk about. Take a look in the mirror. Trans women (and men) are trying to live their life under tough circumstances and it seems many people just want to punish them even more.

Also you do realise if you want people to use the toilets associated with sex they were assigned at birth you are going to have bearded men wandering into the women’s toilets and vulnerable women being faced with the men’s toilets.

We are talking about women's rights.

Its your lot who keep turning that conversation to trans rights.

Apparently you can't even hear yourself doing it.

EdithStourton · 18/06/2024 12:35

Aussieland · 18/06/2024 12:10

Maybe because so many people (including most of this forum) are OBSESSED with talking about trans women and which toilets they use and insist on flooding interviews with questions about them.

And then blaming politicians for talking about them. MAYBE they should be allowed to focus on the bigger issues like child poverty, domestic violence, education, health, Tory MPs sexually assaulting people and then it might be a bit clearer. If all you ask about is trans rights then that’s what they will have to talk about. Take a look in the mirror. Trans women (and men) are trying to live their life under tough circumstances and it seems many people just want to punish them even more.

Also you do realise if you want people to use the toilets associated with sex they were assigned at birth you are going to have bearded men wandering into the women’s toilets and vulnerable women being faced with the men’s toilets.

The answers could have come from the POV of natal women and the risk to their rights and safety. That would have been refreshing.

Peskysquirrel · 18/06/2024 12:36

Upsidetriangle · 18/06/2024 12:31

I think that poster is referring to females who have taken testosterone.

I think most people think the ideal solution is gender neutral toilets plus single toilets.

Ah ok, makes more sense now!

So to clarify, we are going to have bearded females who have taken testosterone wandering into the women’s toilets and vulnerable males who prefer to identify as women being faced with the men’s toilets.

All good.

BionicBadger · 18/06/2024 12:38

I think it’s a health and safety risk @OldCrone - heads exploding in anger and frustration up and down the country.

WarriorN · 18/06/2024 12:41

It always takes a while to go up. So does world at one

Livinghappy · 18/06/2024 12:52

Just listened to the replay...so angry that the issue of women's sports not properly discussed or answered. Also the yes/no question relating to the Cass Review. Daisy Cooper mentioned something about "needing to review with medical professionals". What does she think Dr Cass is? Who do you think Dr Cass consulted??

I'm in England so thankfully don't need to suffer the SNP and Greens not likely to get a seat where I am but Lib Dems could because historically they had an image of "softer conservatives" however they are dangerous/scary when it comes to women's rights.

Keeptoiletssafe · 18/06/2024 12:52

Upsidetriangle · 18/06/2024 12:32

We are talking about women's rights.

Its your lot who keep turning that conversation to trans rights.

Apparently you can't even hear yourself doing it.

And since we are talking about toilets…..

I want to keep everyone safe. But look at the history of where this has now got us. Single sex toilet designs for people that are more dangerous than before.

Document T details the toilet design legislation that will come in to force in October. There is a glaring problem that means the toilet designs are dangerous for everyone but in particular, disabled people, medically vulnerable, women and girls.

There are 4 toilet designs:

• A Ambulant universal - full height door and full height floor to ceiling partitions

• B Universal - full height door and full height floor to ceiling partitions

• C Single sex ambulant - profile diagram shows full height door and no door gaps

• D Single sex - no profile diagram, no mention of door or partition heights, AND can be designed as Type A or B ie fully enclosed for single sex use

None of the designs specify a door gap at the bottom of the door or at the top.

Why do gaps matter?

Because toilet door gaps save lives.

If you collapse, being able to survive or if you suffer long-term damage, will be down to whether someone notices and rescues you.

If you’re out and about or at work and feel nauseous/ill you are likely to head to the toilet.
There are around 100,000 hospital admissions due to heart attacks in this country, equating to one every five minutes.
There are also around 100,000 strokes in this country, equating to one every five minutes. There are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet.
Around 1% of people in this country have epilepsy and around 80 people are diagnosed with epilepsy each day. To put it into perspective there are around 9 children with epilepsy in an average secondary school.
There are many other conditions that lead to collapse where you need to be noticed and accessed quickly eg. diabetes.

I have experience of saving a young woman’s life as I noticed her blue hand poking out of a door gap on a nightclub toilet floor. We got over the top of the door (there was a large gap between the door top and ceiling), pulled her body out the way and opened the inward opening door. She had choked on her own vomit and was silent but we cleared her mouth and she started breathing properly again. A recent government report noted 80% of the incidents of drink spiking happen in public places, usually in bars and clubs, mainly to women, average age 26.

Prevention of sexual assaults
In any space that becomes private, more offences are likely to take place. In Parliament it was discussed that there was at least 1 rape inside a school premises each day (over 600 in a 3 year period). The data, collected by the BBC, mentions an example occurring in a private cupboard. This was in 2015, before many schools decided to change their toilet designs to fully enclosed and mixed sex. There is no available data on these new toilet designs but, teachers and pupils are reporting many problems with drug dealing, dirt and sex. The toilet door gaps are vital for safeguarding to help prevent activities that stop pupils, especially girls, going to the toilet. There are known problems of girls avoiding toilets and getting urinary infections or missing school. The legislation does not affect schools but they are at the ‘coalface’ in new design.

A quick internet search brings up the disproportionate number of sexual assaults and rapes that happen to able bodied and disabled women and girls in disabled toilets in this country which are obviously mixed sex and fully enclosed toilets, often in very public places.

More problems with toilets with enclosed full height doors are:

  • Ventilation is decreased so there’s a higher risk of disease spread.
  • Evacuation times are greatly increased as a responder can’t tell quickly if stalls are occupied.
  • Hygiene is compromised as a mop can’t go underneath the doors nor floor be washed down. It is awkward to enter the cubicle with a mop and detritus ends up on the partition corners.
  • Doors are more likely to get stuck/warped and the cubicle out of action.
  • People are more likely to engage in illegal activities (drugs) or self harm if they are in a private space.
  • The length of time in a cubicle is increased, especially if the wash basin is in there so queues are longer.
  • Occupants can’t see if anyone is lying in wait outside their cubicle if they are feeling vulnerable.

Why have toilet cubicle door gaps disappeared from the new public toilet designs?

There are many articles and videos on why we have gaps under and over toilet doors - so it is worrying these have been ignored. The initial government consultation that was publicised several years ago led to Stonewall coordinating a response and very effectively dominating the results. There is nothing wrong with this lobbying but the policy goals that were created from the initial consultation concentrated on mixed sex ‘universal’ toilets and privacy because of toilets being mixed sex.

ARUP was appointed by the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities to carry out research into the toilet requirements of the population of England in the built environment, in particular disabled people and people with long-term health conditions. The government also did a second consultation. I wrote a lengthy response to the second consultation, detailing the statistics and need for door gaps but none of these issues were mentioned on published consultation results.

In the ARUP document, the justification (evidence and literature) for fully enclosed toilets comes from two American sources on p.129 of the report. I have spent time analysing these sources as so much seems to depend on them. One references the other which has the reason for the fully enclosed idea discussed in their paper referenced by ARUP: ‘A better solution, supported by many transactivists, and increasingly found in trendy nightclubs and restaurants, is to eliminate gender-segregated facilities entirely and treat the public restroom as one single open space with fully enclosed stalls.’

No safety concerns of fully enclosed cubicles were acknowledged in these two ARUP ‘evidences’.

So the Arup recommendation for fully enclosed cubicles is from a tiny amount of very poor evidence and literature focused on a different group. Their ‘evidence’ bears no resemblance to any of the designs of UK toilets in Document T. Their ‘evidence’ does not take into account any long term health conditions nor disabilities’ analysis.

In the whole Arup document there was no mention of the words: seizure, faint, diabetes, cardiac, heart, epilepsy, syncope, endometriosis, menorrhagia, collapse. There was one mention of ‘stroke’ in reference to a grab rail. However I would argue that a floor-to-door gap is vital in design for those having a stroke and those who are frail because of a previous stroke.

What other equality impacts have been done?

I can not find any other evidence or research as to why the designs are fully enclosed in the published documents. Obviously this does not mean everything has been published. However, the Equality Impact Assessment for the Provision of Toilets (updated 15th May 2024) does not mention door gaps. It goes through all protected characteristics and does not identify any negative impacts of full enclosure.

Conclusion

Specifying toilet door gaps will enable offices, shops and entertainment venues to be suitable for workers and children with health conditions where there is a chance of collapse without warning and then Document T will comply with Equality Act 2010, The Health and Safety at Work Act (1974), Children Act 1989.

In terms of negative impacts for the protected characteristics in the Equality Act (2010), the absence of door to floor gaps in design affects age, sex (discussed above), disability (discussed above), and pregnancy and maternity. It affects everyone in terms of disease prevention, a medical emergency and fire evacuation.

I tried contacting Lee Rowley MP and his Department of Levelling Up, Housing and Communities department, Kemi Badenoch, the Health and Safety Executive (they say it’s for Department of Levelling Up, Housing and Communities department) and the Building Safety Regulator (who say it's for the Health and Safety Executive). And the shadow equivalents. No response.

The designs in Document T do specify that every door should be able to be opened from the outside and an inward opening door catch released so it can be pulled outwards (although I am not sure how public-savy the design will be for rescue). At the very least there should be a door gap of sufficient height between the floor and the bottom of the door to safeguard the occupant in single sex toilet designs C and D. As the designs are in Document T, there is no specification other than full height doors.

The government needs to enable people with long-term health conditions to live safe lives and help them be independent and in work. It needs women and children to be safe and prevent assaults through good design.

So has the government dismissed the rights of certain disabled groups (people with epilepsy etc) to a safe working and leisure environment?

Have they completed an emergency evacuation assessment and a fire risk assessment for a row of fully enclosed toilets compared to a ‘traditional’ row of toilets with door gaps?

Have they risk assessed the impact of disease spread from less cleanable and less well ventilated fully enclosed toilets?

Do they recognise the danger of fully enclosed toilets for the chances of surviving a long term injury or death from collapse such as from a heart attack, stroke, epilepsy, brain injury, diabetes and fragility?

And do they recognise the dangers, particularly to women and children, that a private space in a public area brings?

The single sex designs C and D need to specify floor-to-door safety gaps. If models A or B are used in single sex toilets, they need their design altered to include floor-to-door safety gaps. I would prefer mixed sex toilets to have door gaps too but if single sex are the default, then that’s a start.

Mind the gap! It could save your life.

Bookery · 18/06/2024 13:10

MalagaNights · 18/06/2024 11:41

Many women do want to stay longer with their young children and feel forced out to work.

It's presumed by the Tories and Labour and seemingly many feminists that women back to work as soon as possible is what women want.
I don't think that's true for many women.

And I'm not sure being dependent on the state instead of a man is working out that well for many women.

There is a issue with falling birth rates which is going to impact us all soon.

You can argue it's not a problem because you'll just increase immigration to fill in the gaps. But I'm not sure that's the progressive compassionate position you think it is!

And even if that's your plan that's very different from the unmanaged levels of immigration we have now.

All of these are reasonable positions you are free to disagree with, but they're not the misogynist/ racist/ fascist/ other insult that suggests a bad thing you imply.

They're normal rational debatable views.

That's why people are going to vote Reform they're sick of being slandered for reasonable normal views.

I can see that many women may not wish to return to full-time work without the possibility of WFH as soon as possible after giving birth; better maternity leave policies and a societal discourse about allowing greater flexibility for such mothers (though in the private sector there will be dissenters concerned about presumed productivity and profits) may help in some cases.

I understand why you said what you wrote is a "normal, debatable view", but it is not correct to claim the current level of immigration is "unmanaged".

It would be reasonable to posit that most people who feel they are compelled to vote for Reform are not strongly motivated to consider women's best interests, including the interests of women referenced in your comment.

jacksonlamb · 18/06/2024 13:11

Very interesting interview with Rosie Duffield on Times Radio (with Andrew Neil) as we speak - well worth listening to now or on catch up.

DrNickedMaCorpus · 18/06/2024 13:11

WarriorN · 18/06/2024 10:18

Oh god my blood pressure can't take this. I'm going to listen later on.

Yeah, I can't even face it.

Peskysquirrel · 18/06/2024 13:19

jacksonlamb · 18/06/2024 13:11

Very interesting interview with Rosie Duffield on Times Radio (with Andrew Neil) as we speak - well worth listening to now or on catch up.

Great interview so far, recommended.