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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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20
AIstolemylunch · 12/06/2024 08:47

Im no fan of the Tories but this is a Labour/Green/Lib Dem culture war surely?

Chersfrozenface · 12/06/2024 08:47

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 08:39

You do realise the "North London Elite" has anti-semitic roots don't you?
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-hypocrisy-of-rishi-sunaks-north-london-slur

Just because a politician didn’t intend to invoke an anti-Semitic trope—and surely Sunak had no such intention— does not mean that trope was left uninvoked. As Rachel Cunliffe warned this week, in a piece with the headline “Why Do the Tories Hate North London?” published in the New Statesman, “anyone aware of how tropes about wealthy elites intersect with anti-Semitism should be cautious.”

American bollocks.

"North London elite" means Islington, Highgate, Hampstead, Camden left wing bien-pensants.

OvaHere · 12/06/2024 08:48

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 08:42

He does engage. But what he says pisses off both sides.
There are endless threads on here poring over what he said, what he really meant. There are endless posters shouting and calling other posters "TRAs" for not being completely TWANW.

Nothing can move forward when the entire debate is hijacked by the noisiest 2 percent at either end of the opposing positions.

In what way does he meaningfully engage with or women or women's groups? He still won't speak to Rosie Duffield (and lies about it) and Labour Women's Declaration are still shut out.

illinivich · 12/06/2024 08:50

I don’t think people ever realised that its possible for a man to change his birth certificate. I think people assumed the process allowed them to change name and ponouns. Now its more understood, of course they disapprove.

The live and let live mentality is more that the public wont outright abuse someone, but they dont actually believe, either. More like dont ask us to confirm your identity in every situation and we can get alone.

I think people assumed the process was more robust, too. That there was an element of gatekeeping to it.

Now we all know, or know of, someone who just declared their transition, and very often nothing changed about them. We are seeing the reality of the process and what politicians are asking of us - to accept the person at their word, when they havent gone through any 'meaningful' social or medical transition.

Its politicians who have caused this, not the culture. The culture could tolerate men wearing dresses, it cant tolerate being forced to say that as a result, the men are female.

RedToothBrush · 12/06/2024 08:50

OvaHere · 12/06/2024 08:48

In what way does he meaningfully engage with or women or women's groups? He still won't speak to Rosie Duffield (and lies about it) and Labour Women's Declaration are still shut out.

He's prejudged them as transphobic not having anything worthwhile to say.

Even despite court cases and Cass.

StainlessSteelMouse · 12/06/2024 08:50

ArabellaScott · 12/06/2024 08:29

What has struck me so far is how many people are standing. Lots of new, tiny parties, lots of independents. Good, in a lot of ways - people are mobilising. But I think it's reflective of a huge loss of faith in all the main, established parties.

I think we're seeing a lot of that all over. The centre-left coalition in Germany is crashing badly - it's a brutal time for incumbents - and the CDU will lead the next government, but polling shows even CDU voters don't think the CDU will make their lives better. They're just voting to stop the chaos. The fact that the CDU had to bring back Friedrich Merz, the guy who was defeated for the leadership by Merkel 20 years ago, because they had no other viable candidates... well, that tells a story.

Tony Blair has done so much damage to his own standing that it's hard in retrospect to remember just how popular he was. It wasn't just an exhausted government riddled with scandals. Blair had charisma, he channelled a feeling of optimism, even those of us who thought Blair personally was a bit cringe understood that New Labour, at the time, was broadly a good thing.

I don't see any of that this time around. I can see Starmer winning a landslide in terms of seats, but without much enthusiasm, and becoming very unpopular very quickly. It will be interesting to see how Reform do, or Galloway's candidates, or the independents who are popping up around different issues. The two-party system isn't working like it used to.

Even Keir himself doesn't seem very excited about being PM. Our resident Labour stans often sound like they're trying to convince themselves.

ResisterRex · 12/06/2024 08:51

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ArabellaScott · 12/06/2024 09:09

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 09:11

Well said @ArabellaScott

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/06/2024 09:27

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Agreed. The tedious ramblings of one journalist in the New Yorker does not make a well known and used phrase "anti semitic".

Having lived and worked in that area, it's massively diverse with places of huge wealth and privilege alongside great deprivation. There's a thriving cultural / political scene there with numerous politicians and people with influence living there.

RebelliousCow · 12/06/2024 09:40

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 08:32

To me it means taking a controversial issue and deliberately turning it into sides so that people are "either with us or against us", by using emotive language, over simplifying the argument and being black and white about solutions.

Immigration is a good example. The Conservatives/Reform paint it as either you support the Rwanda plan and "stop the boats" or you support complete freedom of movement with no restrictions whatsoever. Whereas the reality is most people are somewhere between those points on a spectrum of more or less controls. The polarisation turns it into a fight, not a negotiation.

It's also treating the electorate like children, which I don't appreciate.

Except it was grassroots women that galvanised the movement and got the media ,and even their own parliament, to discuss it - not the Tories.

Labour responded by saying " No Debate" " Bigots" and " Hate Groups". That is the stoking of culture war, right there.

Most people hadn't a clue what was going on and still don't really. If they do at all, now it is thanks to the grassroots movement. Again nothing to do with the Tories. The fact is there were some in the Tory party who agreed with the grassroots movement and have since got behind it - others, such as Sunak have simply used it as part of the attack on Labour.

Furthermore - nobody can really change sex and Sex Matters...it really is that black and white. That is the foundation, and at its most fundamental.

RebelliousCow · 12/06/2024 09:52

StainlessSteelMouse · 12/06/2024 08:50

I think we're seeing a lot of that all over. The centre-left coalition in Germany is crashing badly - it's a brutal time for incumbents - and the CDU will lead the next government, but polling shows even CDU voters don't think the CDU will make their lives better. They're just voting to stop the chaos. The fact that the CDU had to bring back Friedrich Merz, the guy who was defeated for the leadership by Merkel 20 years ago, because they had no other viable candidates... well, that tells a story.

Tony Blair has done so much damage to his own standing that it's hard in retrospect to remember just how popular he was. It wasn't just an exhausted government riddled with scandals. Blair had charisma, he channelled a feeling of optimism, even those of us who thought Blair personally was a bit cringe understood that New Labour, at the time, was broadly a good thing.

I don't see any of that this time around. I can see Starmer winning a landslide in terms of seats, but without much enthusiasm, and becoming very unpopular very quickly. It will be interesting to see how Reform do, or Galloway's candidates, or the independents who are popping up around different issues. The two-party system isn't working like it used to.

Even Keir himself doesn't seem very excited about being PM. Our resident Labour stans often sound like they're trying to convince themselves.

I agree he doesn't seem keen to be in number 10 and keeps emphasising how much he wants to keep his family out of the limelight. I reckon he may step down within the first 18 months.......Labour will then be under presssure to replace him with a woman, although Wes Streeting is clearly grooming himself for leadership.

Thelnebriati · 12/06/2024 09:55

IDK if this needs it own thread;
''Public support for transgender people's ability to change sex on their birth certificate collapses compared to recent years, major study reveals
Just 24 per cent of people now agree that trans people should be allowed to change their sex 'if they want' – compared to support levels of 58 per cent in 2016. The results have emerged as part of the British Social Attitudes report, carried out annually by the National Centre for Social Research.''

https://archive.ph/DJbir

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 10:13

Chersfrozenface · 12/06/2024 08:47

American bollocks.

"North London elite" means Islington, Highgate, Hampstead, Camden left wing bien-pensants.

Maybe you should read the article?

BezMills · 12/06/2024 10:15

I'm getting big "0-1 Term" Energy from SKS, he's no STEB

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 10:18

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My post was one line and a para from an article I thought you'd find interesting.

Not sure its possible to be "muddled" in a sentence of one pointConfused

BezMills · 12/06/2024 10:22

I was just served an Ad showing one of the key pledges, to upgrade the Border Force to be BORDER SECURITY COMMAND. I mean ok, but what happens when we want to sound like we are tough on immigration and border control next election? ULTIMATE SUPER BORDER SECURITY MEGA COMMAND?

Not really a priority of mine, but I guess they must have decided that this kind of thing is important to a significant part of the base.

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 10:24

RebelliousCow · 12/06/2024 09:40

Except it was grassroots women that galvanised the movement and got the media ,and even their own parliament, to discuss it - not the Tories.

Labour responded by saying " No Debate" " Bigots" and " Hate Groups". That is the stoking of culture war, right there.

Most people hadn't a clue what was going on and still don't really. If they do at all, now it is thanks to the grassroots movement. Again nothing to do with the Tories. The fact is there were some in the Tory party who agreed with the grassroots movement and have since got behind it - others, such as Sunak have simply used it as part of the attack on Labour.

Furthermore - nobody can really change sex and Sex Matters...it really is that black and white. That is the foundation, and at its most fundamental.

Edited

Starmer is making a general point, using one issue as an example.
I don't think he was talking about the GC womens movements at all. He was talking about the likes of Reform and the Conservatives weaponising it into a sound bite, knowing they can't deliver.

So Sunak saying "a man is a man and a woman is a woman" as a soundbite at conference, to win votes as it sounds clear and sensible. Then translating to Badenoch's policy guff about "legal women" and "biological women" and letting service providers choose if they want to include TW as W.

Sunak knew when he made his speech he was promising something that isn't deliverable without pulling out of human rights frameworks, yet did it anyway to sound popular. Then didn't commit to pulling out of human rights frameworks as he knows that isn't actually a vote winner.

PronounssheRa · 12/06/2024 10:32

BezMills · 12/06/2024 10:15

I'm getting big "0-1 Term" Energy from SKS, he's no STEB

Same. Starmer needs to have an eye on what is happening in Europe re the move to the right, I don't think he will though because he seems determined to ignore the issues.

That is a real worry

CantDealwithChristmas · 12/06/2024 10:36

Calling it a culture war is just another way of saying that the silly wimmins are being hysterical

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 10:38

It is.

CantDealwithChristmas · 12/06/2024 10:40

Whilst I did enjoy this article, it's only fully relevant to anyone who ever had any time or respect for 'lefty men'.

As a working class immigrant who through a combination of luck and strong, supportive female relatives ended up at a Russell Group Uni and in lefty circles thinking I'd find a proper understanding of class and material dialectics, I can confidently declare that I've ALWAYS found upper middle class 'lefty men' to be sexist, politically ignorant and extraordinarily hard of thinking.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2024 10:42

I can confidently declare that I've ALWAYS found upper middle class 'lefty men' to be sexist, politically ignorant and extraordinarily hard of thinking.

Me too.

RedToothBrush · 12/06/2024 10:45

There is a MASSIVE cultural political difference between South East and London Based MPs. This goes across all parties.

This is why the red/blue wall concept was created - because it reflected a real social division.

Political surveys have also found the are massive social attitude differences between north and south.

I wouldn't associate it with a jewish trope tbh for that reason. Maybe it does have roots in anti-semitism, but I don't think its necessarily about that and thats not necessarily how it will be understood by a huge number of people - in the UK (we'll go into this a bit more later).

It depends on the intent. Its possible its playing to two audiences - a northern one and an anti-semitic one as well.

I associate it as a swipe at Starmer / Corbyn who both have constituencies in North London and them being out of touch with the north. Should we ignore that the last two Labour leaders have been from the same small part of London, when one of the features of British politics since 2016 has been about this North / South Divide. Have we forgotten the Northern Powerhouse and how important HS2 was going to be? Historically, the battle for the north is where elections have been won and lost - particularly in more recent years - and its about highlighting that to this part of the electorate. This dynamic will be part of political strategy because of how important the red/blue wall seats are. Much was talked about how important that Blair's constitency was Sedgefield - a northern one.

Not being funny, but if that how I'M interpreting it as a Northerner thats how many others will. Many northerners won't even understand the jewish thing because they won't even register the connection. Precisely cos they aren't from London and don't give a shit about London polictics and possibly have no clue or even particular interest in the demographics of North London!

Indeed I'd go as far as to say, the anti-semitic interpretation is potentially a London Centric one - and actually re-inforces this concept of the political class from London not understanding the North's mindset and sense of priorities and interests being massively different. So the danger here in going on about it being anti-semitic is you inadvertly make northerners roll their eyes as far back in their heads as you can possibly imagine because once again the North becomes invisible as London Centric issues dominate over this sense of being second class. Some will see it as a tactic to try and silence criticisms that Labour's selection process is meaning representation of the North hasn't been good.

You risk throwing tensions about Israel into the mix unnecessarily and fuelling anti-semitic feeling, when a lot of people wouldn't have registered it otherwise. Talk about creating a culture war! How does that help and reduce anti-semitism??? In doing so, its YOU who inflames matters too.

Think about this as well. This is a journalist who is/has been London based writing for an American Audience with absoluetely no understanding of UK north v south polictics. Its exploitative in its own right to stoke feelings in the US by using British politics in a way that doesn't even necessarily reflect the UK. How is that ok??? Why aren't they writing about the dynamic in British politics where the North feels left behind? Anyone would think they are writing about British politics because there is an American Election coming and they can use this for their own political agenda not to reflect British politics in anyway.

Hmmm.

This isn't to say that anti-semitism is ok. Its really really not. I'm saying that in recent years the dynamics of politics is relevant and how people will understand the comment is important.

CassieMaddox · 12/06/2024 10:57

I think its controversial enough for people to refrain from using it. Especially people who are very vocally pro-Jewish in other ways. I'd assume they would be horrified to be saying something that Jewish people might feel was a dog whistle.

I didn't know about the association until someone pointed it out on another thread. Now I see it everywhere.

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/jlm-lambasts-priti-patel-for-north-london-metropolitan-liberal-elite-comment/

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2019/10/why-i-don-t-think-priti-patel-s-reference-north-london-was-anti-semitic-dog

JLM lambasts Priti Patel for ‘North London metropolitan liberal elite’ comment

The Jewish Labour Movement said: 'The meanings and associations behind language matters, especially in the current political climate'

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/jlm-lambasts-priti-patel-for-north-london-metropolitan-liberal-elite-comment

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