To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

I'm quite posh. Live in a very posh part of a desirable to live in city. My son was at a private school. I've employed nannies, cleaners and gardeners.

I won't lie, if my son were a cleaner, it wouldn't be my first choice but he'd be in a useful job, doing paid work. I wouldn't be unhappy. I would be unhappy if he were in "sex work"

If he were using prostitutes I'd be so disappointed. I don't think I'd want to see him.

Do you seriously think posters here hold female punters in less contempt than they hold male punters?

Anyone who buys other people’s bodies for sex is scum.

Why can't we focus on the punters? They are the ones doing the damage. They are the ones using trafficked women/girls to orgasm, they are the ones cheating on their partners, they are the ones who believe their entitlement to sex is more important than anything else. Absolutely they should be the focus. With no demand, there would be no supply.

Men sell sex to other men.
Women don't buy sex as a rule. Why would they? They can get it for free, easily.

So I assume you'd be fine if your wife decided she would have sex with her boss for an extra amount in her pay packet
No harm done. Just like any other overtime.

Rape is a crime that involves penetration with a penis, so no.
Any theoretical woman punter is also assaulting the male prostitute, but I would argue it is more invasive and increases vulnerability to be the person being penetrated than the penetrator, so they are not equivalent.

Let's look at a more sanitised version.

Years ago I was tangentially involved with some cam girls . First of all, the websites took a cut , then the "studio" took a cut. A lot of them were young women, some barely 18. The reasons varied, some were in debt, some had chaotic lives/were homeless,one was a struggling single parent, some thought it would be easy money (ha!) , some got "recruited" etc.

There was extreme pressure to make money. A lot of them felt unable to say no to requests in case they lost clients/money. There was pressure to go bigger and bigger(from girl on girl , to masturbating with a whole fruit bowl , to urine or faeces "play")A lot of the requests were degrading, as was the majority of the language used and it did take its toll. If they weren't making enough money there were veiled or outright threats and pressure to buy products to improve "performance " and "productivity " for which they then owed money to the "studio ". Some got threatened if they wanted to branch out on their own. They were supervised by the owners, in case they were on break too long, laughing or messing around ,cam off etc.Manipulation, gaslighting,control.Many , many other things.

So glamorous, so much choice. Still, they were safer and more sheltered in many ways , than prostitutes.

Now extrapolate that to trafficking, to the streets and brothels and the so called "dance clubs".

It's an illusion. Sorry, but it is.

Prostituted women often report symptoms of PTSD, much in line with men who have been in combat zones. Some of them were already suffering from CPTSD, as a result of csa, or other forms of sexual violence prior to their "sex work". The legacy of flashbacks, audio and visual speak volumes, to me, of the harms which prostitution causes.

OK.
Can we agree men have much more bodily autonomy than women?

I’d perhaps go further and say we have more agency in general than what women currently enjoy.

I will add as I know from my many years in cleaning.
You can choose only keyholder jobs, so you dont have to meet people, cleaning offices is a piece of piss, there are many many different hours you can choose from, from full time to only every other Sunday. You can still get paid cash in hand in many places and most importantly, you can Jack the job in if you hate it or the people and know inside of a week you'll have another.

Nowt wrong wi cleaning as a job, I'm out of it now but could go back any time.

I just had a bit of a penny drop moment reading your post bodega.
Cleaning is a chore. We pay people to do it for us because we are busy or whatever.
Sex isn't or shouldn't be a chore. There is something inherently misogynistic about a narrative that makes out that sex is a chore women do for men, that can be outsourced to someone else. It's got overtones of sex being unpleasant, boring or indifferent for women, so really their partner is doing them a favour by paying a prostitute for the chore. 🤮

Agree.

Not to the same degree. Let's call it rapey or rape adjacent. If there was a huge power discrepancy in women's favour, then yeah, it would be exactly the same. The power differential is in the favour of the prostitute if he is male in every way aside from financial power. I'm assuming a woman buying sex is more prosperous than a male prostitute, though that may not always be the case. The male prostitute who services women is not at nearly the same risk from violence or disease as the female prostitute who services men. It's easier for a woman to get an STD from a man, and obviously a woman is more vulnerable to assault. Female prostitutes are also more likely to be trafficking victims than male prostitutes who service women.
That mitigates the rapiness of it to some extent, but it's still vile.

Exactly. It's another false comparison, like the cleaner/prostitute comparison. It could be disingenuous, but perhaps it's just not well thought out. At any rate, it's a poor argument.

I agree. The Nordic model also criminalises pimps/madams, brothels,…so all third parties as well as buyers on the basis that all commercially sold sex is sex slavery.

The goal of the Nordic model is to eventually end the sex industry by outlawing and then eliminating demand for bought sex. This is done while providing free education and training to get women (and the few men) out of prostitution/porn. The final step is full abolishment of prostitution & porn.

Very few women buy sex from women/men.

Whether these women are rapists depends on whether it is legally rape or forced sex or serious sexual assault as defined the laws of the country the crime is committed in.

England has one of the the most restrictive definition of rape in that it has to be penetration of a flesh and blood male penis into a flesh and blood female vagina, or any sex’ anus or mouth to be rape. (The latter two are very recent additions,- a man legally couldn’t rape another man until 1994). The English law makes it impossible for a woman to ever be convicted of rape.

In England a woman can forcibly penetrate another woman or man’s relevant orifices with a strap on plastic penis and it’s not rape, because it’s not a ‘real penis’. In England, it is legally sexual assault, and the woman is not a rapist. In other countries, that would be legally rape and the woman a rapist.

A woman can force her vagina, anus or mouth on to a man’s penis (there are cases) and in England that’s not rape of the man, it’s sexual assault. In other countries it is legally rape and the woman is a rapist,

So the question are these women rapists too is not a simple question.

To bring male prostitutes into the discussion feels disingenuous to me.

Why? Males are 20% of the victims of prostitution. The buyers are almost always other men. The forced penetration of an anus is legally rape in England. These males, who are just as likely to be trafficked, suffer just as much rape, pain, internal damage, and psychological suffering as do female prostitutes.

I don’t think it is disingenuous to point out that the sex industry is built on the sexual appetites of men of all sexualities, it’s not just heterosexual men buying sex.

I don’t think it is disingenuous to mention in passing that 1 in 5 victims are male.

It should. But, here is the problem with that, I don't know if most MumsNetters have considered this angle.

Most prostituted women (I will call it prostitution and refuse to call it"sex work") are young. While you do find some older women (30s to 40s) they are way less common. So, what happens to these girls and young women after they leave prostitution?

Their lives move on. They study, get jobs, become wives. They then look exactly like the rest of us. You won't know their past lives unless they tell you, and with the heavy judgement on women's sexuality they rarely will be open about this.

So they're not going to come onto a thread like this and out themselves as having experience as prostitutes, are they. Their voices are effectively silenced.

While in the industry it is necessary for their mental health to rationalise that what they are doing is not necessarily harmful. For them to do it day after day and consider it might be rape, would be too much to bear. Much of the work may be tolerable, some of it may not be. But while they are doing it they will commonly disassociate to manage the reality and get through. So they may not necessarily be the people who are in a position to tell you honestly what it does to them. And they may not be able to face it until they've left the industry and had some time to process everything that happened.

For honesty you need to listen to women who did it, left it and processed it. But by that time they have too much to lose and need to remain anonymous.

Those who prefer the term ‘prostituted woman’ to prostitute; do you think it is literally impossible to choose to exchange sex for money?

Is every single prostitute a victim even if self employed?

This strikes me as a very infantilising view of adult women.

‘For honesty you need to listen to women who did it, left it and processed it. But by that time they have too much to lose and need to remain anonymous.’

Umm, this (and many others) are anonymous forums.

There is also plenty written by ex prostitutes and it is very mixed. Some hugely regret it whilst others feel it allowed them freedom and gave them free time. Clearly, these were ‘high class’ escorts who saw tens rather than hundreds or thousands of clients and earned plenty of money.

‘The goal of the Nordic model is to eventually end the sex industry by outlawing and then eliminating demand for bought sex. This is done while providing free education and training to get women (and the few men) out of prostitution/porn. The final step is full abolishment of prostitution & porn.’

And it all sounds wonderful, except it hasn’t worked.

? It’s still in its infancy. It’s an approach to abolition that recognises the fact that simply criminalising supply has never worked ever not even after centuries of banning it. The Nordic model is only 25yrs old. Give it a proper chance.

It is starting to work, btw
”The Nordic Model understands prostitution to be harmful, both to the individual and to society as a whole, and that it is both a cause and a consequence of the inequality between men and women. This model seeks to reduce demand by changing social norms and behaviour.
A much smaller proportion of the population is involved in prostitution under the Nordic Model in Sweden, Norway, and France than under legalisation and full decriminalisation in Germany, the Netherlands, and New Zealand. This fact suggests that the Nordic Model is effective in containing the sex industry—if not reducing its size, at least in preventing its growth.
The Nordic Model does not make prostitution safe any more than full decriminalisation does, because nothing can make it safe for women. However, when it is well implemented, the Nordic Model can reduce the amount of prostitution that takes place and the number of new women being drawn into it by reducing the demand. It also provides routes out for individuals embedded in it.”
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)01799-3/fulltext