To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

@Bodeganights @Thelnebriati ,

Does making something illegal tend to stop it or criminalise it and make it even more hazardous? Do you actually care about this or just want to win an argument.

‘It's a subject we've discussed along with surrogacy. In some ways my husband is a simple soul. I assume from your name you're a man ? My husband just can't get his head round, in the case of prostitution, how he, or any other man can delude themselves that a woman wants to have sex, but only if you pay her.’

I am glad you and your husband are in such accord, you must have a very happy marriage. I assume you don’t have a cleaner then? Or do you think they would come and brush your bogs out for the sheer joy of it?

Yes, that is simplistic and I am aware sex and cleaning aren’t the same. But, you either call a nuanced argument a ‘word salad’ or you have to argue in simple sound bites….

I am glad you and your husband are in such accord, you must have a very happy marriage. I assume you don’t have a cleaner then? Or do you think they would come and brush your bogs out for the sheer joy of it?

Oh that's a good one. Never heard that before. Earning a living by being a cleaner is no different from earning a living by having punters wanking into or over you. What a gotcha.

Yes I do have a cleaner. I have a gardener as well. I've employed various people over the years to help us around the house. It's incredibly offensive to all of them to compare what they do to being just the same as being in prostitution.

Newbutoldfather
@Bodeganights @Thelnebriati ,

Does making something illegal tend to stop it or criminalise it and make it even more hazardous? Do you actually care about this or just want to win an argument.

Deaths among sex workers are reduced in places where the Nordic Model has been introduced.
Sex trafficking in women and children increases in places where sex work is legal.

Those are both checkable facts, not ''sound bites''. The Nordic Model aims to reduce demand among sex buyers - men.

So why do you want prostitution to continue?

I want women to never have to consider prostitution as a way to make money because they have either enough money from benefits or a decent job, even a cleaning job if that's what they want.

And i was a cleaner for many years. No one asked if I'd give them a blow job, or if they could wank in or on me. Funny that. And I got paid holidays and some sick pay and other benefits like death in service and a pension.

You telling me prostitutes get all that?

@IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle ,

Really? Only if you look down on prostitution, which is the opposite of the Nordic model. Do you really think a single parent looks down at their baby and envisages them cleaning for a living. I am 100% certain that is not what you want for your children!

I read this argument so many times that cleaning bogs is dignified work (almost invariably by those who have cleaners), despite the fact 90% of cleaners are women and I doubt many of them really enjoy it.

I am not looking for a ‘gotcha’ unlike you. I don’t think there is a simple solution, but I don’t think using a prostitute is rape, despite never having used one.

I do believe in strong regulation and careful management, but I also think it is totally unrealistic and a massive own goal to try to make it illegal.

Only if you look down on prostitution,

I look down on punters, pimps and apologists for punters and pimps.

One issue with it is that while prostitution is legal, it can still be grounds for deportation for example, which leaves a lot of vulnerable women (a high number of prostitutes are immigrants) at significant risk. The scope is too small and it doesn't apply to all agencies involved.

Does anyone look at their baby and hope they become a prostitute?

Come on.

@ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat ,

‘Does anyone look at their baby and hope they become a prostitute? ‘

That is kind of my point. There are loads of unpleasant menial jobs that, as parents, we don’t see our children doing. We all want our children to end up as doctors, in academia or doing a well paid professional job.

So, the ‘would you be happy with your daughter selling sex for money’ is a bit of a lame argument..

Do you really think a single parent looks down at their baby and envisages them cleaning for a living. I am 100% certain that is not what you want for your children!

you think we look at our babies and want them to go into prostitution?

Really?

Ffs some of us with disabled children would be more than happy if they cleaned for a living or worked at some other menial job.
I'd be over the fucking moon if my disabled child got a job full stop.

Someone has to do these menial jobs, its usually left to women anyway, because child rearing, and part time hours are often in menial roles.
I'd prefer my child to work pot washing or McDonalds or cleaning than prostitution.

So, the ‘would you be happy with your daughter selling sex for money’ is a bit of a lame argument.

No it isn't.
Why don't men do it, if its so well paid and empowering?

@Thelnebriati ,

They do. The numbers are smaller, but plenty do.

Also, I never claimed it was empowering, that is a total straw man argument.

There was a thread on here a while ago by a woman who hadn’t had sex for years and wanting to purchase good sex with a handsome younger guy, and there were plenty of replies.

It's not. Because you will actually find people that are happy with their child being a cleaner, even hoping that for them (for various reasons), whereas you won't find one parent that would do the same for prostitution.

It is estimated there are as many as 100,000 sex workers across the UK, and about 20% of them are male. Some of these men see their work as a positive choice, but for the most vulnerable it can be little more than a means to survive.13 Dec 2017

From the BBC I'll link if needed.

Also from 2017 so out of date now but I've gotta go out soon and cant spare the time to trawl through much to find definitive data.

But it shows not nearly as many men are prostitutes as women.

Huh? I didn't bring up abortion. You did.

I confess that I am finding your line of reasoning hard to follow at times. You're all over the place, jumping from subject to subject. So I can't formulate much of a response. Your central hypothesis is that bodily autonomy is an illusion, but I can't quite figure out why you believe that. Can you clarify?

Your last point, however, was very clear and I don't disagree.

"I see mainly single men," says Daniel.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42265838

Most of the men who prostitute themselves are having paid sex with other men, not with women.

‘Mainly’ and ‘Most’ imply women are also buying sex, albeit in smaller quantities.

Are they rapists too?

one of only a handful of charities across the UK that supports these men, trying to keep them safe, says: "When we speak to sex workers about when they first got involved in sex work, the phrase we hear most often is, 'I started when I was 14 or 15,'" she says.
"That's not sex work, that's child exploitation."

Surprise .. surprise.

If a man is paid to have sex with a woman, he does not have to be concerned about what happens if she turns violent, on the whole. He is unlikely to be overpowered, to be analy penetrated against his will, choked and have other women waiting round the corner to "have their turn", without his consent. To bring male prostitutes into the discussion feels disingenuous to me.

Menial labourers are not at nearly the risk of violence, disease and drug addiction as prostitutes.
This is a false comparison, which makes it a lame argument.
People don't want their daughters being beaten, raped and killed by johns and pimps a lot more than they don't want them getting blisters from menial labour.

It seems you may have some false ideas about what life as a prostitute is actually like.

''It can't be abuse, look how much I'm enjoying myself'.

I'm glad somebody pointed out the harms to the families of johns. I know a number of women who experienced this. Some got STDs, cervical cancer from HPV or infertility from PID. All were deeply traumatized, as were their kids.

Why would you not want your child to be a cleaner? It's a great job. There's always plenty of work, you can have lots of control over your own hours, and there's zero take home stress. Yes, a shit contractor makes the work horrible but no different to the way a shit unit manager makes nursing work horrible. Speaking from my experience.
There are some very posh people on this site. Insights into such a strange, foreign world.

It isn't really possible to legalise prostitution without dropping our universal precautions so low they're at 19th century levels. That would make cleaning a dreadful job, and nursing, if there was no need for employers or contractors to prevent exposure to biohazards.
The only sex act I can think of which meets current standards would be a woman wearing medical grade gloves giving a man a hand job while he wore a condom. So the rest of the sex trade would continue anyway, I think.
In my opinion providing sexual/ised labour should not be illegal, it should be decriminalised. I think the Nordic model is probably best for harm minimisation, so procuring sexual labour from another person should be a crime. But I'm not 100% sure. It's a difficult thing to interpret evidence on.
I went to one of the buildings in Victoria which are called legal brothels but I'm not sure what I'd call them. There were, literally, walls of text exculpating the building owners and proprieters from any kind of responsibility to the women who were inside doing the sex acts in exchange for money. In any way - disease, non-payment, assault. Reams and reams of legalese. There's noone else in the city who would put up with those sorts of working conditions.