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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To those who consider prostitution rape...

644 replies

Ahsoka2001 · 09/06/2024 21:31

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Is prostitution rape? | Mumsnet

I've seen posters referring to prostitution as rape on here and I am interested to hear the reasoning. I am undecided on the issue as I have not r...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

OP posts:
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25
BouquetGarni224 · 23/06/2024 00:07

When will the incels ever get the fuck off this site.

XChrome · 23/06/2024 00:26

BouquetGarni224 · 23/06/2024 00:07

When will the incels ever get the fuck off this site.

The ones who give me the biggest laugh are the MGTOW crowd. They insist they are done with women, yet they never leave us alone in our discussion groups. They are massively lying to themselves. I'd feel sorry for them if they weren't such scum.

Laidbackguy · 23/06/2024 06:16

IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle · 22/06/2024 23:14

I almost feel sorry for you. That really isn't how it works.

This is exactly how it works in the majority of heterosexual relationships. I know this because it’s a gripe I hear time after time from make friends and colleges.

Laidbackguy · 23/06/2024 06:18

BouquetGarni224 · 23/06/2024 00:07

When will the incels ever get the fuck off this site.

Are your ideas so fragile you can’t stand anyone challenging them?

Laidbackguy · 23/06/2024 06:26

XChrome · 22/06/2024 21:46

A transaction is an exchange of goods for services. If both people want sex, for whatever reason, and are able to freely consent, it is not a transaction.

Transactional would imply an expectation that if I do a, b &, c you’ll do e, f & g. Transactions don’t need to involve goods.

All relationships work in this way, if you feel you’re giving noticeably more to a partner than you get from them you’re not going to hang around.

Beefcurtains79 · 23/06/2024 06:31

Ahsoka2001 · 10/06/2024 11:38

I absolutely agree but a couple posters on the threads I linked were honestly arguing that it’s rape even if the sex worker doesn’t realise incredibly

But the punters know they aren’t having sex with them because they want to, don’t they?
So what does that make them?

ThatAgileGoldMoose · 23/06/2024 06:49

Ahsoka2001 · 10/06/2024 11:53

But what gives people the right to decide on the sex workers behalf that they’re a rape victim? Assuming they’re an adult and fully capable of consenting (ie not under the influence of drugs or mentally ill etc) then they're capable of deciding that for themselves, surely?

Why are you calling it deciding on their behalf? None of us are frogmarching sexworkers to the police and forcing them to report rapes that they don't believe are rapes.

Everybody is allowed to have an opinion on other people, their actions and what is done to them. Those people may or may not agree with our opinions. So what?

As an not entirely irrelevant aside, I suspect that you are a male poster. Please could you confirm? It would give some context.

Dervel · 23/06/2024 09:04

Laidbackguy · 23/06/2024 06:18

Are your ideas so fragile you can’t stand anyone challenging them?

And are you really so fragile that a bunch of women chatting intelligently amongst themselves presents such a massive existential threat to you?

Laidbackguy · 23/06/2024 09:13

Dervel · 23/06/2024 09:04

And are you really so fragile that a bunch of women chatting intelligently amongst themselves presents such a massive existential threat to you?

Is a discussion in an echo chamber ever useful? Surly if you want a sensible debate you want to hear all ideas and the bad ones don’t stand up to scrutiny?

biscuitandcake · 23/06/2024 09:13

XChrome · 23/06/2024 00:26

The ones who give me the biggest laugh are the MGTOW crowd. They insist they are done with women, yet they never leave us alone in our discussion groups. They are massively lying to themselves. I'd feel sorry for them if they weren't such scum.

Its like my then 4 year old stropping of to their room to sulk over something. If you ignored it, then after about 5 minutes you'd hear "I'm Not talking to you" shouted from his room. If you still left it, he would return to the living room to tell you in person that he wasn't talking to any of you ever again. (He grew out of it).

Dervel · 23/06/2024 12:01

Laidbackguy · 23/06/2024 09:13

Is a discussion in an echo chamber ever useful? Surly if you want a sensible debate you want to hear all ideas and the bad ones don’t stand up to scrutiny?

Nope it is not, but this is not an echo chamber. What do you mean by a “sensible” debate? If you wish to have a productive debate you probably don’t have the resource of time to entertain literally every idea. A bad idea particularly presented with strong rhetoric can bog down a discussion, several of them can render the endeavour completely fruitless.

Whilst it’s true having a few people trained in critical thinking, logic & rhetoric can burn through those bad ideas at a fair old pace that skill set is quite rarified nowadays. Particularly in spaces of online discourse.

However go on, please contribute further. I’ve already pointed out to you your error in that you have conflated the concepts of transactional & reciprocal. Would care to address that point?

CassieMaddox · 23/06/2024 13:01

Laidbackguy · 23/06/2024 06:16

This is exactly how it works in the majority of heterosexual relationships. I know this because it’s a gripe I hear time after time from make friends and colleges.

I think that says more about the psyche of your college friends tbh
Maybe when you've all grown up and had proper girlfriends your attitudes will change.

IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle · 23/06/2024 14:42

CassieMaddox · 23/06/2024 13:01

I think that says more about the psyche of your college friends tbh
Maybe when you've all grown up and had proper girlfriends your attitudes will change.

I think college was a typo for colleagues. I don't know but even if his male friends and colleagues were such unreconstructed chauvinists to talk with each other in this way, one might have expected more of the boastful "she can't get enough of me, I'm so good at" blathering than the pitiful admission that their partners won't put out unless they get something in return.

XChrome · 23/06/2024 15:51

Laidbackguy · 23/06/2024 06:26

Transactional would imply an expectation that if I do a, b &, c you’ll do e, f & g. Transactions don’t need to involve goods.

All relationships work in this way, if you feel you’re giving noticeably more to a partner than you get from them you’re not going to hang around.

Yes, every relationship is give and take. That does not mean it is transactional. In a healthy relationship, you give because you care about the person, not just because you expect to get something out of it. However, if one person is doing most of the giving and the other merely takes, it's not a healthy relationship. There needs to be a balance.

XChrome · 23/06/2024 15:53

Laidbackguy · 23/06/2024 06:16

This is exactly how it works in the majority of heterosexual relationships. I know this because it’s a gripe I hear time after time from make friends and colleges.

Well there's solid proof, then. Your friends say so, which makes it fact. 🙄

XChrome · 23/06/2024 15:54

biscuitandcake · 23/06/2024 09:13

Its like my then 4 year old stropping of to their room to sulk over something. If you ignored it, then after about 5 minutes you'd hear "I'm Not talking to you" shouted from his room. If you still left it, he would return to the living room to tell you in person that he wasn't talking to any of you ever again. (He grew out of it).

😄 Exactly.

Dervel · 23/06/2024 19:35

XChrome · 23/06/2024 15:53

Well there's solid proof, then. Your friends say so, which makes it fact. 🙄

@Laidbackguy any response to your error of confusing transactional and reciprocal?

XChrome · 23/06/2024 20:15

Dervel · 23/06/2024 19:35

@Laidbackguy any response to your error of confusing transactional and reciprocal?

Edited

🦗

Dervel · 24/06/2024 01:22

XChrome sorry I quoted you in my response to laidback I misclicked something.

XChrome · 24/06/2024 01:28

Dervel · 24/06/2024 01:22

XChrome sorry I quoted you in my response to laidback I misclicked something.

No problem. That's what I figured happened.

Newbutoldfather · 24/06/2024 07:41

It’s really interesting seeing the passion but fuzziness with which some people argue. The actual subject is interesting: can you consent to paid sex. I think yes you can, others disagree with some good reasoning. And part of that discussion should revolve around comparing sex to other acts things people do for money, and also what other relationships look like in terms of their nature.

The transactional idea is interesting and transactional vs reciprocal might be interesting if either of the posters had discussed what the terms actually meant.

I do think that many old fashioned relationships were definitely transactional, starting with the arranged marriages of royalty and ‘good’ families, and even going through the traditional ‘marrying well’ and accepting a role as a housewife (using the term appropriate to the age I am talking about -1950s to mid 1970s). Another version closer to prostitution was the ‘kept’ mistress, a woman who was set up with an income and a nice flat in a semi nice area (nice enough to live but not so nice you might bump into his wife-Bayswater was very popular for this once upon a time).

And finally, when I was younger, working in the City, the way the bars would pack out with young women who worked miles away, coming in for both a fun paid for evening (in the days when buying drinks for people was normal and non risky) and maybe to ‘snare’ a rich banker. ‘Marrying up’ or ‘marrying rich’ was, and still is, to a lesser extent, a real thing.

But that doesn’t mean all relationships are transactional or that relationships can’t have a degree of transactionality and also a degree of love. Look at the relationships board and the horrible new expression ‘they aren’t meeting your needs’, where ‘needs’ can stand for amount of sex, sharing enough housework or having a regular job and bringing in enough money. Hardly a romantic idyll!

There is of course a big difference between all the above and being a prostitute, namely that they are one to one over a long period, rather than one to many over a short period. But, like with most things, there is a grey area; was the paid mistress who was ‘kept’ by 3 or 4 men unknowingly more like a high class prostitute today?

Like most things in life, it’s not clear cut. Throwing 3 word slogans at each other won’t solve real world problems, which is why there isn’t one clear cut approach to regulating or banning prostitution around the World. The Nordic model, much loved on this board, because it penalises mainly men, hasn’t worked and has just driven a lot underground (and, for those who say it has reduced it, how do you know? Once something is underground, you don’t get good statistics).

CassieMaddox · 24/06/2024 12:07

Newbutoldfather · 24/06/2024 07:41

It’s really interesting seeing the passion but fuzziness with which some people argue. The actual subject is interesting: can you consent to paid sex. I think yes you can, others disagree with some good reasoning. And part of that discussion should revolve around comparing sex to other acts things people do for money, and also what other relationships look like in terms of their nature.

The transactional idea is interesting and transactional vs reciprocal might be interesting if either of the posters had discussed what the terms actually meant.

I do think that many old fashioned relationships were definitely transactional, starting with the arranged marriages of royalty and ‘good’ families, and even going through the traditional ‘marrying well’ and accepting a role as a housewife (using the term appropriate to the age I am talking about -1950s to mid 1970s). Another version closer to prostitution was the ‘kept’ mistress, a woman who was set up with an income and a nice flat in a semi nice area (nice enough to live but not so nice you might bump into his wife-Bayswater was very popular for this once upon a time).

And finally, when I was younger, working in the City, the way the bars would pack out with young women who worked miles away, coming in for both a fun paid for evening (in the days when buying drinks for people was normal and non risky) and maybe to ‘snare’ a rich banker. ‘Marrying up’ or ‘marrying rich’ was, and still is, to a lesser extent, a real thing.

But that doesn’t mean all relationships are transactional or that relationships can’t have a degree of transactionality and also a degree of love. Look at the relationships board and the horrible new expression ‘they aren’t meeting your needs’, where ‘needs’ can stand for amount of sex, sharing enough housework or having a regular job and bringing in enough money. Hardly a romantic idyll!

There is of course a big difference between all the above and being a prostitute, namely that they are one to one over a long period, rather than one to many over a short period. But, like with most things, there is a grey area; was the paid mistress who was ‘kept’ by 3 or 4 men unknowingly more like a high class prostitute today?

Like most things in life, it’s not clear cut. Throwing 3 word slogans at each other won’t solve real world problems, which is why there isn’t one clear cut approach to regulating or banning prostitution around the World. The Nordic model, much loved on this board, because it penalises mainly men, hasn’t worked and has just driven a lot underground (and, for those who say it has reduced it, how do you know? Once something is underground, you don’t get good statistics).

😮
I don't even know where to begin with this post.
Was the married man paying to entertain house his several mistresses unknowingly as much of a sleaze as punters are today?
Were the men marrying for land and money as much in a transaction?
And how is this relevant to whether or not you can buy consent?

It really isn't interesting. Abuse of women is not a "thought experiment"

Thelnebriati · 24/06/2024 12:16

Men are buying sex, women are not selling sex. Prostitutes aren't having sex. They are selling the use of the inside of their bodies, and that's not comparable to any other job. It is more comparable to selling a kidney, which is illegal.

Women support the Nordic Model because it gives vulnerable, desperate women more agency.

Selling blow jobs for a fiver is not a career.

Newbutoldfather · 24/06/2024 12:23

@CassieMaddox

‘Was the married man paying to entertain house his several mistresses unknowingly as much of a sleaze as punters are today?
Were the men marrying for land and money as much in a transaction?
And how is this relevant to whether or not you can buy consent?’

Umm, I would have thought it fairly obvious! Do you think the mistresses of that era would have slept with those guys without the quid pro quo of being an income and a house? How is that not buying consent? Do you feel that wealthy men or women who have mistresses or the male equivalent and look after them financially are buying consent. What about marriages with big age gaps where the older is far wealthier? Buying consent?

And there is your 7 word slogan ‘Abuse of women is not a "thought experiment’.

What is this entire thread but a thought experiment?! Do you think it is a white paper which will precede legislation?

Newbutoldfather · 24/06/2024 12:32

@Thelnebriati ,

‘They are selling the use of the inside of their bodies, and that's not comparable to any other job. It is more comparable to selling a kidney, which is illegal. ‘

It is neither directly comparable to any other job or selling a kidney. Clearly selling a kidney is far riskier, and you can only do it once and survive it for any length of time. The closest comparison is paid surrogacy, illegal in this country but legal in various jurisdictions including California.

‘Women support the Nordic Model because it gives vulnerable, desperate women more agency.’

You don’t speak for all women, some do and some don’t. How do you think it gives vulnerable and desperate women more agency? Someone (not me) posted a detail link above saying the Nordic model was racist and drove a lot of prostitution underground and made it more risky.