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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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35
SmudgeButt · 03/06/2024 11:50

Ok so no men in women's prisons. But even if they have fully transitioned? And so the flip side is that women that have fully transitioned to have all the male genitalia must be kept in women's prisons? Are we happy with that??

I'm fully against the self declaring bit and don't think that gender as a protected right is appropriate at this time. But there are going to be some difficult situations to deal with.

Helleofabore · 03/06/2024 11:50

thefireplace · 03/06/2024 11:35

Oh so the Kemi's proposed changes trumps the increasing number of women murdered??
Of course its relevant,we are discussing how to improve womens rights, right to life is quite important, no?

14 years is the salient point, if they'd been in for just one term, perhaps but they have been too busy fighting among themselves, especially over Brexit.

Its funny how we now see a a whole raft of policies from the Tories, all of which could have been announced & acted upon since 2019.

Wonder what has changed? You'd think they'd been in opposition.

You seem to be the one now making things up. You seem to be the one with absolutist view points and are really pretty hypocritical in your accusations.

No. I have not said that the proposed changes 'trumps' anything. I was responding to your 'but the funding' point pages back. Which you then leveraged women's murders as well to try to strengthen.

CassieMaddox · 03/06/2024 11:51

Helleofabore · 03/06/2024 11:40

I am not saying that the Tories have been great at this. I am saying though that some people are very keen to use hyperbole around this issue to further denounce the party. Perhaps to dismiss this law change.

So my question is if this is supposedly so easy to change, why hasn't it been changed? The party has a majority of seats, do you know whether there was a majority in the House to get this passed without significant pressure placed on all Tory MPs to vote it in.

Do you believe that those MPs on both sides of the house that supported this issue would be enough to pass any changes? Or have you assumed that the party would force votes in support?

The reality is, grimly, that there was not likely a majority available to pass this at this time. If you think otherwise, please tell us what you have based this on.

As far as I can see there are 2 possible reasons:

  1. it's really hard/impossible, even with a huge parliamentary majority. This will be the case for the next party as well so its disingenuous of the Tories to pledge it, because they know its unlikely to happen; or
  2. it's not that hard and the Tories chose not to do it while they had the majority, to make political capital for the election.

I think this because Labour welcomed KBs proposed review last year, since then KB has been stalling "mulling". Sorry for the Penis News link - all I could find given the recent announcement.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/05/labour-equality-act-ehrc-sex-trans/

Keir Starmer backs Equality Act review despite trans activists’ warnings

The Labour Party has suggested it backs the Equality Human Rights Commission’s (EHRC) proposed amendment to the Equality Act 2010.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/05/labour-equality-act-ehrc-sex-trans

EasternStandard · 03/06/2024 11:53

SmudgeButt · 03/06/2024 11:50

Ok so no men in women's prisons. But even if they have fully transitioned? And so the flip side is that women that have fully transitioned to have all the male genitalia must be kept in women's prisons? Are we happy with that??

I'm fully against the self declaring bit and don't think that gender as a protected right is appropriate at this time. But there are going to be some difficult situations to deal with.

Trans men won’t be kept in male prisons

We recognise male violence there just not in women’s single sex spaces. I mean some do recognise it but many fight hard against it being raised.

TheBanffie · 03/06/2024 11:54

Have Labour actually discussed their changes to the GRC with any GPs? I can't imagine they will welcome have gatekeeping of this dumped on them. Gender dysphoria is either a psychiatric condition needing psychiatric evaluation and possibly a GRC, or it's not and therefore no medical treatment or legal certification is needed. Which is it?

CassieMaddox · 03/06/2024 11:55

HPFA · 03/06/2024 11:40

This shows the problem with Sunak using this as an attack. Unless you're versed in the background it's not at all clear what the change will mean.

https://x.com/GMB/status/1797536066917765428

😂😂😂

Ed Balls showing what a grown up politician can do in a debate with KB there.

So now it's clear the Conservatives will let men legally change sex. So 99.9% of women won't have a penis.

Oh dear. Tomorrow is going to be a car crash.

Helleofabore · 03/06/2024 11:56

CassieMaddox · 03/06/2024 11:51

As far as I can see there are 2 possible reasons:

  1. it's really hard/impossible, even with a huge parliamentary majority. This will be the case for the next party as well so its disingenuous of the Tories to pledge it, because they know its unlikely to happen; or
  2. it's not that hard and the Tories chose not to do it while they had the majority, to make political capital for the election.

I think this because Labour welcomed KBs proposed review last year, since then KB has been stalling "mulling". Sorry for the Penis News link - all I could find given the recent announcement.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/05/labour-equality-act-ehrc-sex-trans/

Based on the issues that were publicised for the schools guidance, I would suggest that it is 'really hard'.

However, while you wish to frame it as 'disingenuous of the Tories' to open discussion on it, I think that putting it in the manifesto to force discuss on it is at least a step forward. I would much rather know that it is 'really hard' than to have it swept away as a 'culture war' issue. Because if we have both parties expert opinion on this, maybe, just maybe, a solution can be found.

Sure, call it disingenuous. So what. Those posting on this thread are adults and can make their own minds up about who to trust in politics or not. Let's take the opportunity that we have been given though and make it work in our favour.

EasternStandard · 03/06/2024 11:57

TheBanffie · 03/06/2024 11:54

Have Labour actually discussed their changes to the GRC with any GPs? I can't imagine they will welcome have gatekeeping of this dumped on them. Gender dysphoria is either a psychiatric condition needing psychiatric evaluation and possibly a GRC, or it's not and therefore no medical treatment or legal certification is needed. Which is it?

Exactly

Maybe the pp who feels up to date with GP training can advise

Xenia · 03/06/2024 11:57

Tory Mrs May by the way was terribly helpful in refusing to allow changes (for the worse) to the trans law in England for which I will always be grateful. The courts have started thankfully coming to some sensible decisions too and Sunak's plan sounds wise too.

HPFA · 03/06/2024 11:59

SmudgeButt · 03/06/2024 11:50

Ok so no men in women's prisons. But even if they have fully transitioned? And so the flip side is that women that have fully transitioned to have all the male genitalia must be kept in women's prisons? Are we happy with that??

I'm fully against the self declaring bit and don't think that gender as a protected right is appropriate at this time. But there are going to be some difficult situations to deal with.

This is why Starmer's position is what it is.

There are people out there who think no male should be in a female prison ever and others who think any male who says they're a woman should be.

But the general public make a distinction between (at the extremes) an 80 year old transwoman who's had all the surgeries and is in prison for not paying their TV licence and a fully equipped rapist who "transitioned" five minutes after sentencing.

Of course you can recite the many ways Labour's position is confused, illogical etc. But that might not stop it being the smarter POLITICAL choice.

MagnetCarHair · 03/06/2024 12:00

Legal sex and biological sex seems to be far too difficult a concept for the likes of Balls. I think the clarifying term is a 'legal fiction' which is truthful that the migration from one sex to another is simply a collusion of kindness.

Helleofabore · 03/06/2024 12:02

CassieMaddox · 03/06/2024 11:55

😂😂😂

Ed Balls showing what a grown up politician can do in a debate with KB there.

So now it's clear the Conservatives will let men legally change sex. So 99.9% of women won't have a penis.

Oh dear. Tomorrow is going to be a car crash.

Yes. she made the point that there will be 'legal sex' which she then clarified should be called 'gender'. She was very specific that she wanted 'sex' in the act to only refer to biological sex.

There was never any doubt that the current Conservative Party was going to stop men 'legally changing sex'. The point is to make sure that when sex is important it is prioritised above gender.

Where have you seen anyone saying that the Tories were going to stop 'mean legally chang[ing] sex'? Because that would be news to many of us.

EasternStandard · 03/06/2024 12:03

HPFA · 03/06/2024 11:59

This is why Starmer's position is what it is.

There are people out there who think no male should be in a female prison ever and others who think any male who says they're a woman should be.

But the general public make a distinction between (at the extremes) an 80 year old transwoman who's had all the surgeries and is in prison for not paying their TV licence and a fully equipped rapist who "transitioned" five minutes after sentencing.

Of course you can recite the many ways Labour's position is confused, illogical etc. But that might not stop it being the smarter POLITICAL choice.

You’ve misunderstood, KB said trans men will not be in male prisons. She also said some exemptions can be placed

Labour’s proposal is skewed in favour of ease for men with GRCs and no change to legal framework which means businesses fear litigation.

The dividing line is there. It’s pretty much take the sting out of TRs and deflate their legal challenge, allowing for single sex to flourish; or GP Self ID with Labour and continued legal threat against single sex provision

CassieMaddox · 03/06/2024 12:03

MagnetCarHair · 03/06/2024 12:00

Legal sex and biological sex seems to be far too difficult a concept for the likes of Balls. I think the clarifying term is a 'legal fiction' which is truthful that the migration from one sex to another is simply a collusion of kindness.

To be fair, it's also too difficult for all the posters on this board who can't deal with Starmer saying 99.9% of women don't have a penis.

I thought the Tories were clear a "woman is a woman". Was not expecting a "legal sex" approach from them.

EasternStandard · 03/06/2024 12:04

MagnetCarHair · 03/06/2024 12:00

Legal sex and biological sex seems to be far too difficult a concept for the likes of Balls. I think the clarifying term is a 'legal fiction' which is truthful that the migration from one sex to another is simply a collusion of kindness.

Yes he seems the type with lack of ability on this issue

MrsWhattery · 03/06/2024 12:05

Ok so no men in women's prisons. But even if they have fully transitioned? And so the flip side is that women that have fully transitioned to have all the male genitalia must be kept in women's prisons? Are we happy with that??

Ironically one of the issues with accepting "gender" transition as sex transition, and so having a policy of putting transitioned people in with the opposite sex, is that the outcome is very different depending on sex - the sex of the people who transition, and the sex of those who have to accept them into their spaces.

If a trans man goes into male spaces there's no increased risk to the men, but there is some risk to the TM (for example risk of being raped). If a trans man is in female spaces there is some increased risk to the other women there, because testosterone may increase aggression and strength. But not as serious as the risk from a male. Phalloplasty doesn't give you a penis that can be used to rape someone or impregnate someone.

If a TW goes into a female space, the risk to the women there increases and the TW is at very little risk.

Same with sports. A TW in women's sports is at an advantage, and even if they don't win, they take places on teams and squads from women. A TM is highly unlikely to have this effect on men's sports (though I still don't support it, as if women should have their own category, so should men IMO - it's not just about the results but the changing rooms, culture and men's right to have an all-male space in something that is supposed to be for men).

There are TW who have fully transitioned and remain aggressive to women, such as Sarah Jane Baker. The criterion for being in a women's prison should be being female.

I think there's a case for third spaces in many of these situations, but many trans people reject them. Even though TW often claim they're unsafe in a male space, they don't want their own safe space. That shows it's not about safety, but validation. Safety should come first.

MagnetCarHair · 03/06/2024 12:05

100% of women don't have a penis. That's reality. We have colluded, with bad laws, with a fiction that some do and this lie shouldn't extend into the Equality Act.

FranticFrankie · 03/06/2024 12:06

Will be discussing this on R2- Jeremy Vine
next

CassieMaddox · 03/06/2024 12:07

EasternStandard · 03/06/2024 12:03

You’ve misunderstood, KB said trans men will not be in male prisons. She also said some exemptions can be placed

Labour’s proposal is skewed in favour of ease for men with GRCs and no change to legal framework which means businesses fear litigation.

The dividing line is there. It’s pretty much take the sting out of TRs and deflate their legal challenge, allowing for single sex to flourish; or GP Self ID with Labour and continued legal threat against single sex provision

There is no dividing line. Labour were clear businesses need protection - their approach always was to update the guidance, which protects businesses from being sued, but will take less parliamentary time so legislation can be used for other important matters.

There is no meaningful difference between the parties policies, as is clear. KB has fucked it. That GMB interview shows she has. Oh dear.

CassieMaddox · 03/06/2024 12:08

MagnetCarHair · 03/06/2024 12:05

100% of women don't have a penis. That's reality. We have colluded, with bad laws, with a fiction that some do and this lie shouldn't extend into the Equality Act.

Some legal women do. Badenoch said so. On TV.

ArabellaScott · 03/06/2024 12:08

MagnetCarHair · 03/06/2024 12:05

100% of women don't have a penis. That's reality. We have colluded, with bad laws, with a fiction that some do and this lie shouldn't extend into the Equality Act.

Yep. I don't care who fixes it, but it's clear that it needs fixing.

FranticFrankie · 03/06/2024 12:10

Maya is on now!

MrsWhattery · 03/06/2024 12:11

an 80 year old transwoman who's had all the surgeries and is in prison for not paying their TV licence

I don't want that person in a female-only space, however lovely they are. They have no idea what it is to be female and will disrupt and damage the female cameraderie and mutual support and openness that comes from being with women only. There is a good chance their transition is borne out of a fetish and they get sexual gratification from being put in with women. Statistically they will retain male patterns and levels of offending. All of that matters.

MagnetCarHair · 03/06/2024 12:11

Some people who pretend to be women have a penis. It's no more a reality to say that 99% of women don't have a penis as to say 99% of horses don't have two people hiding inside them and lark about on a stage.

EasternStandard · 03/06/2024 12:12

CassieMaddox · 03/06/2024 12:07

There is no dividing line. Labour were clear businesses need protection - their approach always was to update the guidance, which protects businesses from being sued, but will take less parliamentary time so legislation can be used for other important matters.

There is no meaningful difference between the parties policies, as is clear. KB has fucked it. That GMB interview shows she has. Oh dear.

No legal change then. Big difference. I love all this less parliamentary time lower cost lowering safeguarding nonsense. Just chuck men their legal female certificates and be done with it. Hopeless.

TRAs would be over the moon.

She hasn’t fucked anything

She’s got people talking about an important legal clarification.

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