seeking stats - what proportion believe that TWAW?

[morningtoncrescent62]

Sometime in the last couple of weeks I saw a link to a poll which I think said 19% of the general public believe that transwomen are women. I tried to find the link today but I couldn't. Does it ring a bell for anyone? I can't remember whether I saw it on here or on twitter and if anyone can post it I'd be very grateful.

fairplayforwomen.com/poll/#a2

The word 'believe' can cover a spectrum of attitudes from 'don't actually think TWAW but will indulge someone's fantasy to be polite as long as it doesn't hurt anyone' to 'fully believe that TWAW, have a female penis, lady brain and were violently AMAB'. And probably quite a few 'haven't thought about it before but yeah whatever'.

Hard to know how any stats on the subject break down.

Polls on niche topics are almost always bollocks. Either the participants are self-selecting or the question is structured in a way which forces people who have no opinion to have an opinion.

I seriously doubt that 19% of the population know or care about this issue sufficiently to have a formed opinion on the topic. There are quite a lot of papers which contain “surveys” that boil down to “I asked three of my mates and a couple of helpful second years over in psychology, and 28% of them said...” or “I phoned 100 people, and of the 98 that didn’t tell me to fuck off and stop wasting their time, 50% said...”

The trouble is now that you have to define both “believe”, “transwoman” and “woman” so the poll is probably of limited value.

Sorry, not both.

I doubt it is anything like as high as 19% in reality.

I reckon a poll that asked questions about specific scenarios would reveal all the "Yes, transwomen are women except for relationship purposes."

I'd like to see a poll specifying whether the TW has a penis or not, "passes" well or not then asking about prison, sport, communal showers, intimate care, lesbianism, choice of work uniform etc.

You see I'd say I'm quite happy to treat TWAW for the purposes of their work uniform (then again I'd ban gender-specific uniforms: men can wear skirts, heels and makeup, women can wear trousers, flats, bareface without discrimination).

I would not treat TWAW for prisons or when considering what defines a lesbian.

I'd love love love to see a proper independent poll on that kind of thing.

Helen crowd funded and ran the questions through Populus. If I remember rightly, P*nk News ran a similar survey through the YouGov panel, with similar results.

Online panels are self-selecting, but the research agencies who run them, do their best to gain representative samples. These surveys are usually run through the omnibus surveys, which go out daily. Anyone who wants to run a survey, can do so very cheaply, this way. Panel members get a daily email inviting them to do the day's surveys and the survey will close when they reach their quota.

twitter.com/helenstaniland/status/1055128955894808577?s=19

Thanks MrsSnippyPants. And yes, I know it's a complex question depending on definition and context, and polls are to be treated with caution. But I keep coming across online stuff saying that apart from a small number of T*s everyone accepts that TWAW which sounds complete bollocks and I want some evidence!

Panel members get a daily email inviting them to do the day's surveys

“I asked a panel of weirdos with time on their hands, which I balanced for sex, age and social class but couldn’t avoid the problem that they are weirdos with time on their hands...”

I would be astounded if a panel of people responding to daily email was even vaguely representative of the population as a whole, particularly when it comes to topics like trans rights which are huge amongst students, redditers and twitterers, but are matters of genuine indifference to the population as a whole. The onus would be on the survey taker to show that the results were representative, and that problem would be different for each survey.

“Do you believe that men, who say they are women, are women?”

Pnk News ran a similar survey through the YouGov panel, with similar results.*

Pink News asked whether the law should change to reflect self-ID - only 18% of people said yes to this, via YouGov.

Wings Over Scotland asked the same question about six months before Pink News and only 25% of people said yes to this, via PanelBase.

Helen Staniland's polling for the same question a few months after Pink News, got 13% saying yes (but she was the only one who mentioned male genitalia specifically).

Here's the WoS article:

wingsoverscotland.com/the-law-that-nobody-wants/

Not one person ever actually believes TWAW in the sense of shares something with all women that does not include any men.
They might be prepared to treat TW as W for certain purposes (almost certainly not all purposes) - most of us are - but not a person in history including the fragrant LM actually believes a TW is indistinguishable from a W. Of that I am utterly sure.

I e asked probably at least a hundred times on here I’d peiple believe humans can literally change sex.

Not a single yes, even from the most rabid of believers. Because nobody, NOBODY believes people can change sex.

The Times ran a poll a couple of months ago asking if people should be able to self identify their sex and 97% said no.

But I keep coming across online stuff saying that apart from a small number of T*s everyone accepts that TWAW which sounds complete bollocks and I want some evidence!

Those who campaign heavily for self-ID and insist TWAW are wholly unable to produce any scientific basis for their claims. They consistently misrepresent the evidence there is. So while it’s tempting to try to prove you are right, you will be wasting your time trying to convince any of them.

Of course, there may be others watching who do have open minds. But plain common sense works quite well too. I’ve used this quote from the excellent DonkeySkin on numerous occasions and it is quite effective at stopping most sane people in their tracks.

but not a person in history including the fragrant LM actually believes a TW is indistinguishable from a W. Of that I am utterly sure.

I'm not so sure, I think some TW really do believe it and that lack of awareness of the difference shines through in so many photos or selfies that are posted. I liken it to sticking a tomato in a bowl of satsumas, most of us would spot it immediately but maybe someone who is colour blind wouldn't.

Those who campaign heavily for self-ID and insist TWAW are wholly unable to produce any scientific basis for their claims. They consistently misrepresent the evidence there is. So while it’s tempting to try to prove you are right, you will be wasting your time trying to convince any of them.

I agree, and that's a helpful slide you posted, AnyOldPrion. But I do think it's worth challenging the argument that there's a moral majority who 've bought the trans ideology and the only people who haven't are a tiny minority of bigots who need to come in line. Arguing against the TWAW ideology itself is indeed a waste of time, but it helps to have the evidence (where it's available) to be able to refute claims that trans ideology is near-universally accepted.

The reason I step in to the science threads is because yes, there’s little point arguing with a TRa about TWAW but there is value in rebutting the general twisting of science they often use.

An example is the fMRI brain scan stuff - anyone knows you can’t change sex, but if you waffle on in big words that ‘scientists have found transbrain’ then not many people have the background to look at the actual paper and critique it. We do have several posters on here who can do that - and that is valuable. Ditto all the other shit - appropriation of intersex, sex spectra, yada yada.

I dont give ‘em an inch on the bad science ;) I am a veritable Rottweiler.

Then why the constant complaints of being triggered (stupid word in this context) by female things? Why would a reference to something you either think you have or don't think is a distinguishing female characteristic (vagina, for example) be of any importance at all. I know logic and TRAs are rare bedfellows but still!