DD14 is regularly assumed to be trans/NB/a boy - any advice on how she can respond?

[whatsinanumber]

She is tall with short hair and a low voice and only wears trousers / shorts etc plus has always liked stuff that people (even in 2024) seem more likely to associate with boys - football, techie stuff etc. She regularly gets assumed to be NB or a boy and, if she says she's a girl, is often then assumed to be a trans girl.

On the whole, she's not bothered if people assume she's a boy and won't bother correcting them but quite a few times people have looked surprised / affronted to find her in a girls loo (or other girl's/woman's space) and she finds this embarrassing. She's asked me what to say to people when this happens. She doesn't want to be confrontational or make anyone fell awkward because she thinks it's not coming from an unkind place i.e. people are either genuinely confused or just trying to not offend. So, any advice on a quick way of knocking this on the head and not turning it into 'a thing'? Thank you.

I think misogyny has more heads than the Hydra.
I was shamed as a teenager for wanting to look pretty - makeup, earrings &c. From a conservative Christian perspective. I don't know if you know the phrase "painted Jezebel," but that sort of thinking.
I just wanted to look lovely and instead was taught that female people are by definition not lovely, and should make themselves as small as possible, not draw attention to any deceitful loveliness.
The fact that popular culture foistered a whole different set of expectations on me as a girl, and then as a woman, didn't protect me from familial expectations.
I think that's a world away from the friend you describe, but I do wonder if the people commenting aren't observing more subtle pressure she's exerting on her girl children? We obviously can't ever avoid doing this as parents - everyone has preferences and values close to their heart and kids want their parents to be proud of them.
But a parent saying, "my way is the neutral way," is a bit of a red flag to me (there is no neutral way, we just muddle through and hope our own excesses are balanced out by other loving influences).

That was in response to the suggestion she should be aggressive and I stand by that. Many women are fed up of having to worry about finding males in their space, so if a male-looking person starts being aggressive in response to a ‘these are the female toilets’ type comment then I would suggest most women would think ‘typical male response’ and either double down and match/raise the aggression or leave - neither are ideal. If a woman says ‘these are female toilets, please leave’ then far better to say ‘it’s ok, I’m female’ in response than to get aggressive - esp as the OP has said her DD doesn’t want confrontation.

I wonder how females like Annie Lennox or Sinead O Connor coped years ago. I use to think they were beautiful and was a fan girl. Never thought they looked like boys because in the 80s and 90s we all wore what we wanted. Pink just wasn’t sold in shops. My younger brother would wear my trousers and jumpers.

we really are going backwards in terms of equality and how we look.

I think misogyny has more heads than the Hydra.

This is a brilliant phrase, and absolutely true.

I agree @Imustgoforarun We all wore pretty masks ch what we wanted in the 80s, there was far less requirement to conform to a norm and far more opportunities to be creative. Many of us had short hair, we dressed androgynously, and thankfully the beauty industry was minuscule in comparison to today. I really feel for my twenty-something DD and her friends, the pressure on them to look a certain way is enormous and I hate it.

I don’t want to make this all about me but those of you saying nobody cared in the 80s/90s clearly didn’t grow up near me! I used to get loads of abuse for looking like a boy. I also got challenged in toilets (“there’s a lad in here”) and generally mistaken for a boy. I was just quite small/ flat chested and I had short hair because my mother had it cut short rather than deal with it being messy.

I imagine if I had been as beautiful as Annie Lenox or Sinead O Connor this would not have been a problem! But as a plain gawky teen girl it was a fucking nightmare.

I wonder if it's because I was born in the 80s that I can't relate to the Barbie monologue at all. It seems like it belongs in a time before mine, but maybe if things are going backwards again? Then younger women in my family go on about women needing more clothes, more wardrobe space than men, or more time to get ready, and I can't relate to that either. Clothes, hair, makeup, have nothing to do with being a woman to me. They are choices if you like those things, but you can just wear jeans and t-shirt with short hair, that used to be common for women.

I do agree sex stereotypes are more rigidly enforced now by the way and that social media has made things worse. But let’s not be too rose tinted about the past. I was born in the late 70s.

Where is the pressure coming from? My DS's college friends don't seem to be affected, but it is a tech college and girls are a minority so I guess self selected.

I was born early 80s and I'm not being rose tinted about it. I'm autistic though, may be why I find much of this woman performance thing meaningless.

I also find this woman performance thing meaningless. What I was responding to by saying let’s not be rose tinted is the posters saying in the 80s it wouldn’t be a thing for a teen girl to be mistaken for a boy as everyone could have their hair however they wanted. This is not true, it just isn’t.

Lots of places — the beauty industry is massive, as is the porn industry unfortunately. Male-dominated power structures, the media, the music and fashion industries - etc etc etc. We’ve definitely gone backwards. Like you, myDSs don’t have anything like the same pressure .

Yes!! When I was at school in 70s and early 80s lots of us girls had short hair and dressed not too dissimilar to the boys. Gender neutral clothing was pretty normal. Now it’s so much more strictly defined with girls hair/boys hair and ditto with clothes.

@DuchessNope I was also mistaken for a boy in my early years of high school but I can remember I wasn’t the only one. The huge difference is that women and girls weren’t having to contend with men in their spaces being protected by the authorities - if a man ventured into female toilets he’d have been turfed out and possibly named and shamed.

Ok I think it maybe genuinely was just me then probably because I was so ugly. I got the piss ripped out of me at school consistently for most of the 80s for looking like a lad. I also got generally mistaken for a boy when out and about. I very much wish I had been at some of the other posters’ schools! My northern town was not a bastion of sex equality, very much the opposite.

Sorry SirChenjins cross posted with you there. I know it’s completely pathetic but I’m finding this thread really upsetting, I’m still quite traumatised by my childhood I think.

This.

I think most teens have their hair long nowadays. If it bothers her she can grown out her hair, wear something more feminine etc.

I moved abroad when a bit older so I am missing a lot of uk context from there on I expect.

I was talking about his friends who are girls, but these are girls who have chosen to go to a boy heavy college so maybe these girls are different.

My dd started secondary school with short hair. She started growing it almost immediately as everyone assumed she was trans, non binary or possibly a boy (this is at a girls school). It shouldn’t be that way, but it’s now a strong social signifier, and I fear may have disadvantaged her socially, as she has recently been told that other Y7s were wary around her in case of misgendering her.

The irony is that she had short hair at primary school because she was sick of the girly stereotypes, and wanted to show that girls could have short hair and play football. She had a friend (a boy) who had long hair for similar reasons, and they used to find it funny when people judged their sex wrong, based purely on their hair.

Its really hard to navigate - I encouraged to have short hair if she wanted, but I fear I may have been wrong to do so.

On misgendering, how often are you talking about someone in their presence anyway? Though, my son's circle just use they/them for everyone now.

I think it was that this generation have learned to be so careful about the sensitivities around misgendering that they are scared to engage at all, the female name plus short hair just did not compute for them, and it was easier to just avoid her in case of possibly getting something wrong. That’s my best guess. It’s such a shame. Especially as she was initially oblivious about the impact her haircut was having.

Yes.whenever you like xxxx

so sorry! Misposted!

Does it bother her? What is her face like, does she have soft features? Maybe she would like to get her ears pierced. What is her physical shape, is she very straight up and down, or hourglass. If her chest develops, then that will change how her body is seen.