The Mental gymnastics of genz thought process

[ThrowawayMay]

NC for this. Can’t sleep so thought I’d ask about this evenings youthful interaction.

My niece (23) who lives with me, attends a design college and yesterday a male student installed artwork threatening surveillance in the female toilets (and all the other toilets too so there were no alternatives). My niece and her classmates wouldn’t use the toilets because they didn’t know if it was just a concept artwork or if he had actually installed cameras. A older female student challenged the man taking photos in the toilets and ordered him out then complained to staff via email but apparently nobody was in so nothing was done about it.

When I was speaking to my niece and her classmate in the evening, I was astounded by the mental gymnastics involved in how it would be ok if the person had identified as a trans woman but because he didn’t this was a problem. The friend went so far as to point out unironically that the women’s toilet should be a safe space for women. I asked how they knew he didn’t identify as trans (they said because they knew him as a man so knew he wasn’t) and I asked how him wearing women’s clothes could have changed the outcome of the threat of surveillance cameras, and they said because a trans woman wouldn’t do that (!). I asked what if they didn’t know this hypothetical trans person personally and they said then it wouldn’t matter because they wouldn’t see them again. My niece even went so far as to say it’s not how a person presents, it’s how they identify but couldn’t answer how they would know how someone identifies in a situation like this without asking them outright which is as we know problematic.

I just don’t understand the mental gymnastics involved in justifying albeit in this instance, hypothetical behaviours. Because this person dresses like a man and identifies as a man he’s a threat but if he happened to say he identified as a woman then he wouldn’t be a threat regardless of how he dressed, and they’d just accept this on his say so?

I tried to explain to my niece and friend that this is the gender critical dilemma. How do we know who is safe? and doesn’t allowing a male bodied person who identifies as not male into places where women are in a state of undress or vulnerability, open up the spaces to men like this guy who doesn’t care for the boundary being crossed and thinks it’s acceptable in the name of art (or any other reason he can think of)

Of course I’m called an old t*rf for my logic but they just cannot see that their response is illogical. The level of trust required for their viewpoint is astounding based on how someone identifies internally which we can never truly know about or if they make it known, be sure that they are genuine

Can anyone explain to me how this works in the mind of genZ because my geriatric millennial brain is not catching up?

@Brainworm excellent post

College at 23. Shouldn't she be working by now ! Kids don't grow up these days days

But isn't the OP talking about a convo between her DD and her DD's classmate, in which the classmate had said it would be okay if the artist identified as a trans woman?
And that's the OP's point: she didn't introduce the trans debate, the students did.

It's impossible to argue with them without being called all manner of GC terf. They believe so staunchly in supporting the minority of genuine trans women who are vulnerable that they don't think about the other TW who are not in that category and pose a genuine risk to other women. They have no clue of what a long and hard battle it's been for women to win the right to these safe spaces that are being so easily eroded by TW.

Pray tell when would be 'the place', oh arbiter of other people's conversations?

It's actually not clear from the OP who brought up 'trans'; her or the niece.

Either way, I personally couldn't think of a more relevant topic of conversation to question the implications of self-ID.

Perhaps I didn’t write it in simple enough language. I apologise.

We were having a conversation and my nieces friend said she would feel differently and not threatened had it been a trans woman who had generated the artwork. I didn’t raise the issue of trans women because I was more concerned at the time with the over stepping of boundaries and the power dynamics of a male student feeling entitled to not only go into women's toilets but to claim that there was surveillance going on in there, frightening the female students and causing them to avoid using the toilets.

i hope I clarified that for you.

She’s a postgraduate student. There are people in their 50s and 60s on the course too apparently (I was told there’s someone as old as me as if that’s an horrific state to be in) - ought they to grow up too?

So a quick update from my niece.

It was the hot topic of conversation in college again today among the women and they are not happy they got no response all day . The staff seem to have finally emailed a response this evening claiming it was a conceptual artwork and had been removed but that was all that was said.

I’m guessing that is the end of the matter as far as the college are concerned. Not sure it addresses the wider concerns but what can women do? Sit down and shut up it seems.

Interesting that your niece's friend jumped to the trans comparison. Clearly she does see a connection between trans women and men, otherwise why say it at all? The exception that proves the rule - in making TW an exception she is also proving the rule that TW are in fact men.

I think that’s where cognitive dissonance comes in. They know trans women are trans women and by default cannot be anything other than biologically male but have society and their peers tell them something different that they have to make themselves believe to survive socially.

Interestingly (and depressingly) not long ago I was asked to take part in 'diversity' training (which was all about TQIA+ with a passing reference to LGB but nothing about race, sex, age, disability etc). One slide was headed 'Get comfortable with being uncomfortable'

And who's being asked to put up with being uncomfortable? Women. And why? So that men can feel comfortable. What a surprise . Why does a transwoman feeling uncomfortable going to the men's toilets trump the discomfort of all the actual women if he goes into the ladies'?

OP, your update that the college has not apologised is remarkable. Did they not think of how female people with trauma would react as the very basic thought they should have had? That any female person who has experienced abuse, or worse, may have an immediate negative reaction that no college should be encouraging students to trigger.

But also, how many women without backgrounds of abuse and trauma have now lost their trust in the college to protect them? I wonder if the staff even knew?

If there's any mental gymnastics here it's the attempt to deny the elephant in the room. Her point is 100% relevant. The fact you deny it says a lot about you

I was just about to say that. Let him try mental gymnastics on some police officers.

Nothing wrong with my comprehension. The information simply was included. Given the obsession with all things trans here, not unreasonable to think that you have interjected your own opinion completely irrelevantly, but glad your niece has given you another angle on how trans women are hypothetically taking over women’s spaces.

The actual elephant in the room is a predatory man saying he’s set up surveillance in a female toilet and it not being escalated to teacher or police involvement. instead the op seems more concerned with a hypothetical situation involving trans women, which is incredibly odd, but shall leave you to your riveting discussion on imaginary scenarios.

They need to make a fuss! Formal, written complaints. You wouldn't be allowed to intimidate and threaten other students on the basis of their race or sexuality so why on the basis of sex, which is actually a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.

Women, make a scene! Don't be ignored! After all the witterings on about 'safe spaces', the college have allowed a student to make the women's toilets a no-go area for women! This is unacceptable.

Or - same artwork project on Monday - in the gents and staff toilets.

I forgot I even commented on this 😂

You're claiming to have reading comprehension but have clearly not comprehended the OP's update as this is exactly what she was primarily concerned about.
Two things (expecially when they are inter-related) be a concern at the same time...who knew? 🙄

Of course it was escalated to staff for goodness sake. are they not allowed to discuss it at home with their friends and family?

if you cannot see the connection between this scenario and the hypothetical one that the girls spoke of then that is on you, not me.