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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Nidysheyzjsbsgwhw · 01/05/2024 18:42

PickledMumion · 01/05/2024 18:40

It's a book for children. It shows how standing up for what you believe in, and doing the "right thing", isn't always easy, and how other people can give you a hard time for it (and JKR wrote this before anyone had sent her death threats for understanding very basic human biology at a time when that was considered to be blasphemous......)

But it's very clear throughout the writing what she considers the "right" thing" to be in the context of slavery. Obviously.

I don't think it's as black and white as that. She has her main character literally owning a slave. After the big final battle, her main characters thought is of that slave will bring him a sandwich. That to me isn't a clear cut message that slavery is wrong 🤷🏻‍♀️

PTSDBarbiegirl · 01/05/2024 18:43

"Sad" his language is almost pre school. No emotional literacy or any respect for the safety of women, happy to stand by when JKR spoke up against transing, homophobia and mysogyny and was thrown under the bus. He's got her to thank for his multi millions. Tosser.

TeaGinandFags · 01/05/2024 18:49

Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations who have far more expertise on this subject matter than either Jo or I.

Right, mate.

So when a transgender person has surgery the anaesthetist needs to know the biologicak sex: a male receiving a female dose won't go to slerp while a femsle receiving a male dose won't wake up.

Sex matters. Fantasies don't.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/05/2024 18:49

Nidysheyzjsbsgwhw · 01/05/2024 18:39

If you're expecting me to pull out a quote of a character using a slur then you clearly don't possess much critical thinking ability 🤣 as linked in the article above, her depiction of the goblins leans into harmful antisemitic Jewish stereotypes

Actually, I am expecting you to do that. Because the article you linked to is full of crap.

It doesn't mention the rather important fact that after trans activists lost their shit all over Twitter about JK Rowling's "antisemitism", Jon Stewart went on record saying he was making a light-hearted joke about the films and he does not think JK Rowling is antisemitic.

It also claims that she depicts the goblins as "hook nosed" in the books. So my challenge to you is to quote the part where she actually does that. Because I have actually gone back and looked and cannot find any reference to the goblins' noses.

Everything else referred to in the article is about the Warner Bros films, which were produced by the grandson of German Jews who fled the Nazis in the 1930s.

Are you seriously suggesting that JK Rowling should have stepped in and said, "Guys, you can't use Australia House as the filming location for Gringotts because there is a six pointed star on the floor which represents the six states of Australia and doesn't look much like the Star of David, but in 20 years' time some arsewipes who have got it in for me because I don't believe humans can change sex will be saying on social media, a thing which hasn't been invented yet, that this is antisemitic."

illinivich · 01/05/2024 19:02

I feel sad for jon stewart that he had never heard of goblins before he watch the film. Despite reading the book.

illinivich · 01/05/2024 19:03

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/05/2024 18:41

"And any meaningful conversation to protect women's rights / women's spaces won't happen with her leading the movement. Her awfulness is a distraction from the actual issues"

Called it.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4849558-the-news-agents-podcast?reply=127665033

And I'm pretty sure I wasn't the first to say it either.

Yep.

We're going to see a lot of this.

Livingtothefull · 01/05/2024 19:15

'I feel that the statement "trans women are women" erases the identity and dignity of women, who actually need and are allowed to have words and spaces for themselves which don't include members of the opposite sex.'

That is 100% correct @MissScarletInTheBallroom . I find the TWAW statement so inherently creepy and sinister. It actually reminds me of the 1984 quote 'War is Peace/Freedom is Slavery/Ignorance is Strength'. I sense a cynical intention behind it - to demand people accept a self-contradictory statement that is manifestly untrue.

Peskysquirrel · 01/05/2024 19:19

@MissScarletInTheBallroom Are you seriously suggesting that JK Rowling should have stepped in and said, "Guys, you can't use Australia House as the filming location for Gringotts because there is a six pointed star on the floor which represents the six states of Australia and doesn't look much like the Star of David, but in 20 years' time some arsewipes who have got it in for me because I don't believe humans can change sex will be saying on social media, a thing which hasn't been invented yet, that this is antisemitic."

😆Brilliant!

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 01/05/2024 19:30

Nidysheyzjsbsgwhw · 01/05/2024 18:42

I don't think it's as black and white as that. She has her main character literally owning a slave. After the big final battle, her main characters thought is of that slave will bring him a sandwich. That to me isn't a clear cut message that slavery is wrong 🤷🏻‍♀️

Your argument is weak to non-existent. House elves are not humans. They are a different species to humans and they have been indoctrinated from birth to believe their role is to be subservient to humans. Harry inherits Kreacher. He doesn't want him, but he is stuck with him. You could just as well say that dogs who seem to enjoy being pets are being exploited by humans.

I think it's also interesting and far from black and white that Hermione is initially ridiculed for her stance on house elves by other teenagers who have limited life experience and accept the status quo without questioning it. It takes the experience of life under the Death Eaters and Voldemort, who are eugenicists, speciesist and totalitarian, to make the others start to see things more as Hermione does.

BackToLurk · 01/05/2024 19:31

Can someone clarify whether the Potterheads (I have no idea whether that is what they are called) that were devastated by JKR's tweets because it 'literally trashed their childhoods' as they loved the books so much are the same people who always said the books were 'racist & antisemitic'?

Winnading · 01/05/2024 19:35

BiggerBoat1 · 01/05/2024 14:04

I find all the hate a bit sad. He's expressing an opinion, just as JKR does. You may not agree with him, but the personal insults are a bit childish.

Point out the hate please.

I dont hate him, I'm not overly bothered about him and as a heretic who has never watched a Harry Potter film or read the books (soz jk) I have no idea about his acting talent or lack of. Still his comments are juvenile and male pandering.
No thought to women. So that leads me to dislike him. Dislike is not hate.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/05/2024 19:42

BackToLurk · 01/05/2024 19:31

Can someone clarify whether the Potterheads (I have no idea whether that is what they are called) that were devastated by JKR's tweets because it 'literally trashed their childhoods' as they loved the books so much are the same people who always said the books were 'racist & antisemitic'?

No, funnily enough they have only started saying the books are "problematic" since JKR started speaking about women's rights, and will say things like, "Looking back there have always been issues with the books but we didn't know any better back then."

crinkletits · 01/05/2024 19:44

Diana Rigg was spot on about Daniel.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 01/05/2024 19:45

The holocaust refers to the planned and systematic gathering up and murdering of over 6 million Jewish people. The intent was to eradicate a group of people from the earth in their entirety. Hundreds of records were kept and subsequently destroyed.

Quite unique but sadly unique to the Jewish people

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/05/2024 19:48

crinkletits · 01/05/2024 19:44

Diana Rigg was spot on about Daniel.

What did she say?

SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 19:55

From Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone, the first description of a goblin. Setting the scene, if you will:

”The goblin was about a head shorter than Harry. He had a swarthy, clever face, a pointed beard and, Harry noticed, very long fingers and feet.”

I don't know how you could get “Jew” from this not least because none of the Jews I know have long feet. Of course, you can’t because that’s not how they were depicted. Goblins were always going to be shrewd on the basis that they control the money and other precious objects but that doesn’t equal Jewish. Not unless you’re trying to paint the author in a bad light and twist the facts to suit yourself.

Ditto the “denial of trans people in the Holocaust”. As a PP said, cross-dressing was surprisingly widespread amongst Nazi top brass and the cross-dressers who were killed were murdered for being gay, a political opponent or other persecuted characteristic. I have never seen any evidence that cross-dressing (which has now been appropriated by the Stonewall trans umbrella) was solely a cause of persecution and murder. Unless, again, you’re twisting the truth to suit your narrative.

Then we get to the slavery. The HP books were never about slavery, it was a side plot so criticism that this isn’t made a focus is unfair. It is quite clear throughout her books, however, on the need to stand up for what is right even if it means standing up to your friends. Which Hermione does with SPEW, even when she gets mocked for it (which I can understand because she becomes a bit of a zealot - oh, the irony of an over-enthusiastic activist…). But to see how Dobby and other house elves are treated by Harry, Dumbledore and the Order, and Hermione’s campaigning to make people realise that their food comes from a hidden army, contrasted with the treatment of house elves by the likes of the Malfoys and the Blacks, and Dumbledore’s open criticism of how Sirius had treated Kreacher which led directly to him hating wizards so much he betrayed the Order, shows exactly where Rowling’s sentiments lie. Unless you need to twist words to fit the truth you want to believe.

And lastly, I have never seen anything Rowling has said or written which is “anti-trans”. She has, in reality, been supportive of anyone’s right to live, dress, and date as they please. She has just said that some boundaries are not to be crossed with regards the parallel rights of others and, like toddlers told they can’t have any more Haribo, it elicits an almighty tantrum from those who think they should have special rights which trump those of others. Which is what we see again and again.

OP posts:
SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 20:26

After the big final battle, her main characters thought is of that slave will bring him a sandwich. That to me isn't a clear cut message that slavery is wrong

a) it’s a throwaway thought made by an exhausted and starving teenage boy;
b) it isn’t doing anything unpleasant to Kreacher, who had distinctly warmed to Harry after he gave Kreacher the fake locket and had taken to looking after him; and
c) if you need it specifically pointing out to you by the last chapter of the seventh book that Rowling believes that the way house elves are treated by the wizarding world is wrong, then there’s something wrong with your reading comprehension.

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 01/05/2024 20:27

Nidysheyzjsbsgwhw · Today 18:00

Just say you don't understand what holocaust denial means

OK, here you go:

YOU don't know what Holocaust denial means, not that it should be capitalised, in this case. (That's to differentiate from its original meaning in Greek; a mass sacrifice of animals to the gods).

As you are no doubt aware, a German court ruled that her entirely accurate statement that the Nazis did NOT target trans people as a group, for extermination, did not meet the threshold for Holocaust denial.

MrsGalloway · 01/05/2024 20:36

I completely support Daniel Radcliffe’s right to express an opinion, as no doubt would JKR. What I found particularly unpleasant was the fact that he seemed to feel qualified to apologise on her behalf to HP fans. I thought that was an incredibly arrogant thing to do. Of course, having stuck his oar in, he also didn’t think it was appropriate to at least say he didn’t think she should be subjected to threats of death violence and cancellation and I very much think less of him for that.

I followed the entire thing at the time and to be fair to Daniel he commented (I think) before JKR released her essay in which she explained her views with reference to the domestic violence she had suffered- followed by a Sun headline referencing an interview with her ex husband who confirmed he did abuse her. I did think that Daniel might say something vaguely supportive at that point (even Owen Jones did) but no.

I remember being very surprised that Emma Watson and Rupert Grint saw fit to release their completely anodyne patronising “TWAW TWAM yay, sorry if you’ve been hurt by that awful woman, give money to Mermaids” statements in response to that deeply personal and heartfelt statement from someone they had a personal relationship with.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/05/2024 20:38

Nidysheyzjsbsgwhw · 01/05/2024 17:51

I mean you can dismiss my viewpoint like that if you want. But I'm not an outlier, the opinion that she is awful is widespread. And any meaningful conversation to protect women's rights / women's spaces won't happen with her leading the movement. Her awfulness is a distraction from the actual issues 🤷🏻‍♀️

But I'm not an outlier, the opinion that she is awful is widespread.

Yes, that's how echo chambers work, mate.

It doesn't mean that the people in the echo chamber are actually right though. Especially given that none of them appear to have actually read what she's written on this subject or be able to explain why it is actually transphobic.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/05/2024 20:42

Thanks @SidewaysOtter.

Personally, I think if you read about the Gringotts goblins in the books, or even watch those scenes of the films, and immediately think "Jews!" then that says more about you than it does about anything else.

User1979289 · 01/05/2024 20:57

Talking about JKR and her opinions is the only way this loser can stay in the press. What a pathetic sad little misogynist he is.

MadameameBeans · 01/05/2024 21:03

SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 12:40

Apparently he hasn’t spoken with JKR for years. I’m sure she’s gutted, given his bleatings Hmm

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-news/daniel-radcliffe-j-k-rowling-anti-trans-rhetoric-response-1235013076/

You realise that these "new stories" are not him going out of his say to "respond" to something she has said, as if he is making a very important and manly proclamation that everyone must listen to? Some reporter in an interview has gone on and on about it to him to try and make him respond so they can write a tedious article about it. He obviously doesn't want to get into it all again (hence him saying "I'll carry on supporting LGBT and that's all I have to say on the matter", as he knows its nothing to do with him, but the press will carry on carrying on about stuff to get a soundbite because they know the hard of thinking lap it up.

HelpIneedaworktop · 01/05/2024 21:04

Omg Daniel Radcliffe. That’s my mind changed. So glad he took the time to comment or I would have just sleep walked through life. So brave.

MadameameBeans · 01/05/2024 21:05

User1979289 · 01/05/2024 20:57

Talking about JKR and her opinions is the only way this loser can stay in the press. What a pathetic sad little misogynist he is.

It's obvious that he was in the press for something else and the sad little interviewer kept pressing him on this issue, which he clearly doesn't want to get dragged into again. So, no, he'd rather do anything than talk about that nasty piece of work any more.