Thread 2: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

[VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia]

At fewer than 20 posts left, time for part two.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5057460-a-corpus-assisted-discourse-analysis-of-linguistic-transphobia-on-mumsnet

Site Stuff thread that tipped off MNHQ: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus

(note to self very let down than no MS media have picked up on this, but suspect they couldn't come up with a catchy headline so just couldn't be bothered)

In case this comes over as me thinking about me (well yes as a joke) have to admit that influencial as mumsnet might be, I bet the University would be working far harder and quicker if there were articles in news papers.

Even if only they would wnat any doubt cast on their credentials in terms of attracting future students, rather than thinking they have misrepresented mumsnet.

Look, I’m very much gender critical myself but I don’t understand why you think the mere title of this talk/PhD project would result in a libel case. Assuming the title is ´A corpus assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on mumsnet’ then that sentence does not mean mumsnet is transphobic or even that any individual posters are transphobic. It’s proposing that something called ´ linguistic transphobia’ exists - I’d expect a definition on the first page or so. And then implying that examples of language use that meet their criteria for ´linguistic transphobia’ exist in their corpus. Which they will do or they wouldn’t be writing about it. We don’t have to agree with the concept or the criteria. I’d expect the student’s supervisor to at least approve of it as a reasonable theoretical concept but you can’t assume anyone else in the department or wider university does. ‘Linguistic transphobia’ is probably a concept this student has either invented themselves or that they have read about in other people’s research. It’s not a legal definition. Anything the least bit subjective that you write in a PhD is assumed to be your own opinion or thoughts, and you’re supposed to back it up with references to other people’s ideas and work and some original research of some kind.
There are certainly ethical issues at play here, which Mumsnet is going to be hashing out with the Vice Chancellor and department leaders, but we have to be careful about misinterpretation and over estimating the reach and influence of a PhD thesis. A PhD is not a piece of legislation. It only has power if people are interested in reading it, if the research methodology and analysis holds up to scrutiny, and if people agree with the subjective principles underlying the researchers though processes.

Well, whether or not it's libel very much depends on the definition of 'linguistic transphobia' and whether it is within the law / has any evidential basis.

As a data scrapee I would surely have a right to access this definition to decide whether or not I was being defamed / libelled?

Arguably, I should have been made aware that this was the reason for accessing my data - including this definition - for a different purpose than I originally agreed to when I signed up to MN and should have been asked for my consent for this specific study. Because I would have said no. I'm pretty used to women's normal conversation, biology and very existence, being deemed 'transphobic' these days so it would be a very hard 'no' to any study which started off from any position of considering 'transphobia' which I personally now translate to 'she's a witch - burn her!'

Weareallmadeofstardust - if you're aware of the ramifications of the HCA Scotland, and the implications of this for social credit systems (see Unherd and the Global Disinformation Index), and the other concerns raised over what must now be 2000 posts across three threads, but feel personally comfortable, that's good.

I'd be delighted not to have any personal disquiet about the use of such labels at a time when the abmient social trajectory seems to be towards authoritarian systems.

Look, I’m very much gender critical myself but I don’t understand why you think the mere title of this talk/PhD project would result in a libel case

I assume you haven't read the threads.

The internet is far more powerful than some obscure student in an obscure university.

The title implied mumsnet transphobia was causing harm IRL.

You might in some dillitante way think this is an interesting word salad that we can pick at in some abstract celebral way, but the source is stealing parts of women's real lifes.

mumsnet posters are not lab rats.

Added to which, part of what mumsnet contributions have shown is just how dangerous the anti woman narrative of TRAs is having on our lives and women's services.

Again you may not care about that, but for many who post on FWR this is their core reason for posting.

And by posting her silly student lets have a giggle at the terfs title the student concerned has added to the tide of negativity some of us are trying to fight back against.

So false accusation alone make it subject to being considered libelous.

As to the university leaving itself open to claims of lack of professionalism and ethical behavious I am in fact am less worried about, as it has become clear that most universities are now pitching themselves as being at the level of tabloid editors and will, as they have done in this case, encouraged a student they have a duty of care towards to expose herself to ridicule in the public domain.

Here’s a definition from a Stonewall leaflet re: transphobic language.

’This can also include denying somebody's gender identity or refusing to accept it’

I don’t believe gender identity exists (I don’t believe in aliens or souls either) so how can I accept it? I can accept that some other people believe in gender identity (or in aliens or souls) but not sharing their belief isn’t a phobia or evidence of hatred

Otherwise I’d be Alienphobic and Soulphobic.

@Weareallmadeofstardust

Your post made me think to Google “linguistic transphobia” and on a brief search c. 95% of the small number of results lead to Eden Palmer. So I think it’s a term that Edenself has invented.

I look forward to finding out the definition.

@Weareallmadeofstardust it's the Aston Institute for Forensic Linguistics.

Its field is linguistics relating to the study and detection of crime and criminality. That's what 'forensic' means.

As a PP has pointed out, Mumsnet is sharing a Forensics Library with Harold Shipman, The Unabomber and Text Generated by Paedos.

EP has also contributed (or boosted) the hit phrase, "non-linguistic transphobic rhetoric."

A flair for phrases that covertly label people while shielded by organisations that perceive that they can't be challenged might indicate that EP will fit right in with the "adversarial narrative" crowd in the non-accountable disinformation NGOs.

But there isn’t a law about ´linguistic transphobia’.
Hear me out. There are laws on what constitutes hate speech and hate crimes and libel. But there’s no law that labels something as ´linguistic transphobia’. That’s not a legal definition and a PhD student describing something you or someone else on the site said as ´linguistic transphobia’ is not the same thing as libel.
The issues of consent and copyright when using social media posts as data is where this battle is going to be fought. And it will be split into two separate parts : the legality of collecting the data and creating and storing the corpus in the first place, and then what researchers can legally do with that data. Does it need anonymizing? Before the researcher looks at it? Before publishing? Is it ok in the age of power search engines to quote and publish whole sentences or does linguistic data need to be further transformed before being published anywhere?
It’s not illegal to say ´I think this thing this person wrote online is transphobic/misogynistic/homophobic/raciste/sexiste/immoral/creepy/gross because XYZ. And it’s also not illegal to turn around and say, I strongly disagree with you because XYZ.
In research you don’t ask permission to cite things that have been published by other people. You just cite them and reference it properly. That isn’t going to change. It’s not possible to ask for permission every time you reference someone else’s work. Read any PhD thesis on any subject and you’ll see what I mean in about 30 seconds. phDs usually cite hundreds of papers and books. Making a corpus of material published online might require permission though. I’m not sure how clear the law is on this at the moment. Someone with thorough knowledge of GDPR might know better. This is a pretty new thing. The ability to copy and paste huge quantities of text and create corpora that can be used to search for frequencies of different words or linguistic structures is pretty new. It’s not totally clear where the line should go legally between just quoting things that have been published and are available and visible to the public and when this becomes exploitative or harmful.

I’m assuming this must be referring to emojis or memes and things that the researcher thinks are transphobic. I think it’s an extremely clumsy term myself.

As a PP has pointed out, Mumsnet is sharing a Forensics Library with Harold Shipman, The Unabomber and Text Generated by Paedos

😱

I missed that in the thread!!! Really?!!! That's the other data sets they've scraped? So essentially insinuating we are on a par with these people??? FFS

But there isn’t a law about ´linguistic transphobia’.
Hear me out. There are laws on what constitutes hate speech and hate crimes and libel. But there’s no law that labels something as ´linguistic transphobia’. That’s not a legal definition and a PhD student describing something you or someone else on the site said as ´linguistic transphobia’ is not the same thing as libel.

Eden Palmer, on her now deleted LinkedIn page, said she was using "corpus based approaches to examine transphobic hate crimes on Mumsnet". Not "linguistic transphobia". Hate crime.

Yeah, I think this is definitely something Mumsnet should be talking to the university about. It does feel weird that a forensic linguistics research group is connected to this study.
But I also actually know what corpus linguistics and discourse analysis is. And they are fields of research or methodologies that are independent of forensic linguistics. Nothing in the title of this PhD suggests to me that mumsnet or individual users of mumsnet have done anything criminal.

I quoted what Eden Palmer said on her LinkedIn.

Eden Palmer, on her now deleted LinkedIn page, said she was using "corpus based approaches to examine transphobic hate crimes on Mumsnet". Not "linguistic transphobia". Hate crime.

Now that sentence is on very shaky ground. I would expect the university to be having words with Eden about that. ´Hate crime’ does have a legal meaning.

Unsure. It's why I'm sad that tomorrow's webinar has been cancelled because I hoped vipers who attended would be able to report back.

EP is multi-talented because the IAFLL 2024 conference in June has EP presenting this topic:

P#66 Changes in Linguistic Transphobia on Mumsnet over time, 2008-2023.

https://www.aston.ac.uk/sites/default/files/IAFLL2024Programme%20%2826.03.24%29.pdf

EP is competent in both non-linguistic and linguistic transphobia. Frankly, I'm interested in EP's definition or working understanding of "transphobia" and "hate crimes" as so much is contingent on that but it seems I'm to be denied clarity on this for the foreseeable future.

This needs taking with a massive pinch of salt. A university law library would have case reports from everything from warcrimes to copyright infringement. That doesn’t mean copyright infringement is similar to genocide.

EP will be absolutely freaking out because they probably were not expecting anyone to take any notice of their work, much less the people who unknowingly contributed to the corpus they’re using. Normally academics talk to groups of other academics, most of whom are only pretending to be interested in their work.

Nothing in the title of this PhD suggests to me that mumsnet or individual users of mumsnet have done anything criminal.

You keep skipping over the very basic false accusation that postings on mumsnet are causing harm in real life.

Most of us on are about real life. Not the word games of ivory towered academics.

A forum that has provided actual, ie IRL support has via the title been accused of causing harm to trans people.

Seems EP may not be presenting any more

That looks like EP is still presenting, but is going to have to come up something else to present!

‘TBC’ indeed.

I checked that just before posting! Maybe I should have flushed my cache first.

It will be a fast but possible turnaround for EP to settle on a useful topic by then.

Well, to be fair, I do think Aston should refund EP’s fees for the first year as student has clearly been badly supervised if they do not have a viable topic eight months in. The student will struggle to pass the first year review at this rate.
It’s a considerable investment of time and money to do a PhD, particularly if self-funded, and universities do, in my opinion, have a responsibility not to take on research students just to boost their postgraduate numbers.