Thread 2: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

[VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia]

At fewer than 20 posts left, time for part two.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5057460-a-corpus-assisted-discourse-analysis-of-linguistic-transphobia-on-mumsnet

Site Stuff thread that tipped off MNHQ: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus

Wandering around Aston's website, I found this headline:

World-leading scientist gives annual Aston University Distinguished Lecture on the wonder of smart gels

I honestly thought at first it was about the Mitford Sisters.

https://www.policyconnect.org.uk/appgda

Details of the members of the all party parliamentary group for data analytics. Details of how to contact them are on the link.

We have looked at this before and IIRC that’s a different corpus and they did have permission from Mumsnet.

In other papers that have included direct quotes consent was sought from the individual posters as well as from Mumsnet, can’t keep them all separate in my head, let me see if I can find you a post link.

I've no idea what the actual process would be, as I've never collected data from Mumsnet myself, but it looks like that research group has followed Mumsnet's rules on data collection ("scraping" just mean "we made Python or R do the copying and pasting for us" and isn't nefarious by default). I would assume any individual direct quotes would also have been confirmed by either Mumsnet (I've seen "fair use as agreed by X" on similar papers using other data) and/or by the users themselves.

Cross posted with @FeckOffAstonUniversityDoxingDepartment ! But that one looks fine to me. Considering Lancaster is fairly well known for their corpus linguistics know-how I'd be surprised and horrified if they didn't do things properly. Aston could take some notes.

@Dorriethelittlewitch - here’s where the vaccination study was discussed, deep in the depths of thread 1 (there is another thread over in Site Stuff called ‘Mumsnet Corpus’)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5057460-a-corpus-assisted-discourse-analysis-of-linguistic-transphobia-on-mumsnet?reply=134685344&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

Any reference to an "ex" in a quote is troubling unless the individual user has agreed to it herself. And while we all know that AIBU is the most public of the boards and occasionally a source of newspaper stories and so AIBU might be seen as fair game, contributors might expect not to be mined and quoted on "Children's Health" and I am not sure about the ethics of including even unattributed quotes without individual permission. I trust that the Lancaster researchers went nowhere near the Special Needs boards where vaccination might also be discussed.

That's why I suggested that MN might need its own "data ethics" group which includes MumsNet contributors, to review external research proposals that involve MumsNet data.

😂

I'd crowdfund mumsnet for this
incidentally I'm not normally on X but I had a look at Nicci Macleod x account a few days ago and saw her account in full. Today I'm blocked, she must be using Terf blocker. That's how open to discussion she is.

An interlectchul moar scard of ideers thn I is of cats!

R? The statistical programming language? To parse web pages?

This is a very good point. Imagine how a published PhD ‘proving’ MN is transphobic via its rigorous linguistic methodology and evaluation could and would be used going forward.

So not just the silencing of women here concerned about authorship identification and not just denigrating FWR, but dismissing the entire forum. Can’t you just see TRAs referencing the published papers on how transphobic the site is at every opportunity?

That PhD supervisor (whatshername) ought to feel ashamed of undermining female voices and female solidarity, but changing the Twix banner from the suffragette movement to Trans ally says it all really.

The PhD is an attempt at a hatchet job on MN. It set out to prove the student's point from the off and you can tell that from the title!

It was all about reputational damage to a commercial company and to smear MN users generally.

So no I don't really have a lot of time for sympathy for the student because of this.

You can't go around trying to libel / slander in this way. You don't get to dress it up under the cover of being legitimate by packaging it as intellectual.

Why?

Cos it's just not!!!

The very same. It's not an elegant approach but one I've seen used a few times for corpus research.

Disappointingly, I am not blocked (even though I sometimes am by these things). I am not as hardline as I thought.

That's why I suggested that MN might need its own "data ethics" group which includes MumsNet contributors, to review external research proposals that involve MumsNet data.

Strongly agree with this. It's a cliché that data = new oil but accurate. There needs to be a clear set of terms that sets out the purposes, how data may be used, and how long it may be retained, and any need for additional permissions.

Healthcare research is getting there, slowly, and it's long past the time when social science research with data should catch up.

I have to admit that I was quite disappointed when the huge TERF blocklist was published a couple of months ago and my account wasn't on it.

Any idea where this is to access it? I’d like to check if I’m on it as I’m blocked by a few people I’ve never interacted with.

A better study for Aston University might be on how transgenderism as an ideology exists in an intellectual cul-de-sac. It demands that non-believers do not merely tolerate the delusions of others (with a balancing of rights that protects actual woman), but demands that all must accept and assimilate the one true faith, and may never speak the truth; that we are a species defined by a male and female sex (for this is verboten/taboo). Transgenderism is like a cult religion in this regard, and the degree to which organisations have accepted it uncritically within DEI policies is shocking.

Yes @Itradehorses

I have to admit that I was quite disappointed when the huge TERF blocklist was published a couple of months ago and my account wasn't on it.

Did you check below? All the non capitalised handles are listed at the end. it's fairly comprehensive so unless you are very new I have faith you will be there!

Just did a google search for a terf block list and found this academic paper. Mind blown that Dartmouth College would accept this piece of writing!!

Opening reads:
‘ Within the realm of abusive content detection for social media, little research has been conducted on the transphobic hate group known as
trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs). The community engages in
harmful behaviors such as targeted harassment of transgender people on
Twitter, and perpetuates transphobic rhetoric such as denial of trans existence
under the guise of feminism.’

https://digitalcommons.dartmouth.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1164&context=seniortheses

Like others have only had time to catch up on posts from today.

So many points.

Cant quote Justine as it is an embedded graphic is a longer post, but I think:
1 this has caught Aston from out of the blue as it were
2 they are not very subtly trying to imply it is just a glitch on an individual level
3 they are attempting to patronise / placate Justine with a "its just a little storm in a teacup

(note to self very let down than no MS media have picked up on this, but suspect they couldn't come up with a catchy headline so just couldn't be bothered)

Also (sorry if already mentoned) if Eden's eventbrite talk is cancelled will her contribution to the forthcoming conference also be cancelled.

If it isn't, it will be a big two fingers to all of us.

Irrespective of all the in depth look at scrapping etc. (important of course), the mere title of the paper ie that mumsnet posters are transphobic and are harming people IRL is surely open to a libel case. And / or damge to reputation.

I was wondering if the DM hasn't covered it to spare the DM's own blushes.

@IwantToRetire yes to all your points. And again thank you for creating the OP thread1. This has been eye opening!

I really do hope Justine pursues this rigourously and ensures full accountability from Aston.