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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
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Dineasair · 25/04/2024 10:04

Alexandra2001 · 25/04/2024 08:04

Indeed they are and the Tories have had 14 years to repeal or change it, the Tores latest statement is that the GRA strikes the right balance...... so how exactly is it the fault of Starmer????

The Tories will fund the NI cuts with further cuts to public services & will fund the Defence spending commitment with more cuts and 70,000 job loses in the civil service (which of course includes anyone who works for the Govt.....local, fire, nhs, education...)

So whilst Labours position might not be perfect for you or @lifeturnsonadime ... the point is if you don't support Labour you will get another 5 years of the Tories and their track record is appalling, with no changes to the GRA, more cuts to DV and Rape centres, a worse NHS, worse cancer treatment rates, more kids in poverty.... thats their legacy after 14years... it isn't about to change.

Almost every party has been complicit in allowing things to develop the way that they have, in all countries across the whole western world. The Tories have started to change, the Cass report and insisting that NHS wards are single sex is evidence of that. Labour is making some noise about it but the way that they have bullied GC women in their own party is horrific and shows not only how totally captured they are but the lengths they will go to, including threatening actual violence to Rosie Duffield, in order to push this ideology. The Tories have seen which way the wind is blowing and acted accordingly but Labour is so full of trans zealots that I don’t trust them an inch, especially not led by a coward like Starmer, who changes his mind every five minutes and still refuses to use the word woman in interviews. I am politically homeless right now with no idea who to vote for, but if Labour get in they will go full steam ahead with the trans stuff, claiming that as they were voted in, that’s what the country wants. As I said in an earlier post, hell will freeze over before I give either Labour, the Lib Dem’s or the appalling Green Party my vote. I will not vote for a party so captured by this ideology, the minute anyone says TWAW I know that they are either a liar or a fool, why the hell would I want someone who is that dishonest or stupid running the country?

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 10:06

Underthinker · 25/04/2024 08:14

I don’t believe the fight to protect women’s rights is a culture war, but I definitely think there are bad actors using it as a culture war.

Leave Emma Watson out of this.

😂😂😂

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:15

NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 10:04

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

The fact that there currently is a culture war is 100% the fault of the left.

The American right wing, or Russia, or the Tories, or whoever else you might want to blame, would not be able to make political capital out of knowing what a woman is if the political left hadn't lost the fucking plot and started pretending not to know what a woman is!

The culture war is capitalising on whatever issues already existed. The aim is probe at any weaknesses in the fabric of societies, whether they be gender-based, or ethnic, religious or political (etc.) This is an issue that is percolating in most Western countries because of the reasons I stated before - not because of the political Left in Britain. It is global.

Yes it is global, but it is the choice of the political left in the UK to fall for it.

Nobody forced Stella Creasy to say that women can have penises, or Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry to say it is wrong to say that only women have a cervix, or David Lammy to say that women who need single sex spaces are dinosaurs who hoard rights.

They chose to say those things.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:16

With Russian disinformation, the EU produced some research into it. Report here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2021/653644/EXPO_BRI(2021)653644_EN.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwja_6W_gN2FAxVbQkEAHcvQC6MQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3R1YOY7VhMeLrwTNpmT16F

6 main themes of disinformation:

  1. LGBTI+ as ‘colonialism’ by the West;
  2. LGBTI+ as a ‘threat to child safety’: paedophilia and sex education promoting unnatural sexuality and gender expressions;
  3. Negative othering;
  4. Opposing a ‘Gender Ideology’;
  5. Heteroactivism and protecting the ‘natural’ family’s rights

With the exception of the first, all these themes are regularly displayed on here.

https://www.google.com/url?opi=89978449&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.europarl.europa.eu%2FRegData%2Fetudes%2FBRIE%2F2021%2F653644%2FEXPO_BRI%282021%29653644_EN.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3R1YOY7VhMeLrwTNpmT16F&ved=2ahUKEwja_6W_gN2FAxVbQkEAHcvQC6MQFnoECBsQAQ

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:19

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:16

With Russian disinformation, the EU produced some research into it. Report here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2021/653644/EXPO_BRI(2021)653644_EN.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwja_6W_gN2FAxVbQkEAHcvQC6MQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3R1YOY7VhMeLrwTNpmT16F

6 main themes of disinformation:

  1. LGBTI+ as ‘colonialism’ by the West;
  2. LGBTI+ as a ‘threat to child safety’: paedophilia and sex education promoting unnatural sexuality and gender expressions;
  3. Negative othering;
  4. Opposing a ‘Gender Ideology’;
  5. Heteroactivism and protecting the ‘natural’ family’s rights

With the exception of the first, all these themes are regularly displayed on here.

The results you get if you Google Cecilia Strand and Jakob Svennson together are quite interesting.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:19

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 09:02

The thing is, there shouldn't even be a culture war over what a woman is.

The fact that there currently is a culture war is 100% the fault of the left.

The American right wing, or Russia, or the Tories, or whoever else you might want to blame, would not be able to make political capital out of knowing what a woman is if the political left hadn't lost the fucking plot and started pretending not to know what a woman is!

It's like moaning that your political enemies are trying to gather support by saying that the earth is spherical. Well, yes, they'll try to get one over on you however they can. The real question is, why are you pretending the earth is flat and allowing your opponents to score such easy points against you?

From bigcoats quote in the OP:
In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

I know you are very wedded to your anti-Labour position but it's not actually true.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:22

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 10:04

Almost every party has been complicit in allowing things to develop the way that they have, in all countries across the whole western world. The Tories have started to change, the Cass report and insisting that NHS wards are single sex is evidence of that. Labour is making some noise about it but the way that they have bullied GC women in their own party is horrific and shows not only how totally captured they are but the lengths they will go to, including threatening actual violence to Rosie Duffield, in order to push this ideology. The Tories have seen which way the wind is blowing and acted accordingly but Labour is so full of trans zealots that I don’t trust them an inch, especially not led by a coward like Starmer, who changes his mind every five minutes and still refuses to use the word woman in interviews. I am politically homeless right now with no idea who to vote for, but if Labour get in they will go full steam ahead with the trans stuff, claiming that as they were voted in, that’s what the country wants. As I said in an earlier post, hell will freeze over before I give either Labour, the Lib Dem’s or the appalling Green Party my vote. I will not vote for a party so captured by this ideology, the minute anyone says TWAW I know that they are either a liar or a fool, why the hell would I want someone who is that dishonest or stupid running the country?

Labour get in they will go full steam ahead with the trans stuff, claiming that as they were voted in, that’s what the country wants
Their policy is the opposite of that. They have pledged to protect spaces for biological women only. So it would be very hard for them to claim they were voted in on the opposite Confused

OP posts:
duc748 · 25/04/2024 10:23

For those defending Labour, it might be instructive to ask, what about all the other countries where GI has caught hold big-time, like NZ and Canada. Who was responsible there? Actually it was That Nice Jacinda who we all praised to the skies on Covid. Similar in Canada. It is left/liberal parties world-wide (and it gives me no pleasure to say this) who have been responsible for bowing to sectional interests and bringing this awful legislation in. So they should own it. The Labour Party is no different.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:24

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:19

From bigcoats quote in the OP:
In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

I know you are very wedded to your anti-Labour position but it's not actually true.

I am not talking about specific policies around sex and gender.

I am talking about personal beliefs that Labour MPs have expressed.

If a politician promotes a particular policy and explains why they think it should be introduced, I can understand and respect that even if I disagree with it. The Tories proposed to introduce self ID; the idea was canned after they decided it wasn't a good policy.

What I am talking about is individual Labour MPs talking total and utter nonsense.

We can debate the pros and cons of a particular policy which is put on the table for consideration.

It's harder to know how to respond to people who either believe that a woman can have a penis or are willing to pretend they do in order to appease a certain very strident minority, except to say that people who say these things probably shouldn't be allowed to run the country. Or possibly even use scissors.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:25

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:22

Labour get in they will go full steam ahead with the trans stuff, claiming that as they were voted in, that’s what the country wants
Their policy is the opposite of that. They have pledged to protect spaces for biological women only. So it would be very hard for them to claim they were voted in on the opposite Confused

They have not promised anything of the kind.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:19

The results you get if you Google Cecilia Strand and Jakob Svennson together are quite interesting.

Eh? They appear to be researchers into global LGBT activism and the media. Kind of who you'd expect the EU to commission to do this research.

Methinks she doth protest too much.

OP posts:
duc748 · 25/04/2024 10:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:26

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:25

They have not promised anything of the kind.

🙄
We need to recognise that sex and gender are different – as the Equality Act does. We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act. Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/24/labour-will-lead-on-reform-of-transgender-rights-and-we-wont-take-lectures-from-the-divisive-tories

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:26

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:25

Eh? They appear to be researchers into global LGBT activism and the media. Kind of who you'd expect the EU to commission to do this research.

Methinks she doth protest too much.

Well yes, quite.

Bit one sided, no?

I note they are both pronoun people.

Be good to consider this important issue other than through the LGBT+ lens.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:29

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:26

Well yes, quite.

Bit one sided, no?

I note they are both pronoun people.

Be good to consider this important issue other than through the LGBT+ lens.

Research tends to be produced by experts in the field.

Have you a particular reason to discount their research other than the fact they are "pronoun people"?

OP posts:
duc748 · 25/04/2024 10:32

Maybe you should consider at face value if you are vulnerable to spreading Russian disinformation that potentially harms UK democracy?

Unlike many Labour politicians, I haven't been spouting rubbish that is demonstrably untrue. So don't talk to me about disinformation.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:32

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:26

🙄
We need to recognise that sex and gender are different – as the Equality Act does. We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act. Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/24/labour-will-lead-on-reform-of-transgender-rights-and-we-wont-take-lectures-from-the-divisive-tories

They are refusing to clarify whether they think "single sex" means biological sex or legal sex.

Why would they refuse to clarify that?

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 10:34

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:25

They have not promised anything of the kind.

They have. It’s been linked countless times. By all means say you don’t believe them but it’s ridiculous to maintain they haven’t said it.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 10:34

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:29

Research tends to be produced by experts in the field.

Have you a particular reason to discount their research other than the fact they are "pronoun people"?

"The field" relates as much to women's rights and child safeguarding as it does to LGBT+ rights.

So where are the experts in women's rights and child safeguarding?

The topic under discussion is essentially the conflicting rights of different groups and you have two people whose sole academic and professional interest appears to be one of those groups, concluding that all conflicting views are due to "misinformation".

Does that seem neutral and unbiased to you?

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 10:35

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:22

Labour get in they will go full steam ahead with the trans stuff, claiming that as they were voted in, that’s what the country wants
Their policy is the opposite of that. They have pledged to protect spaces for biological women only. So it would be very hard for them to claim they were voted in on the opposite Confused

I don't agree.

There is no definition of which spaces are reasonable.

They are making the process of 'legal woman' easier.

We have trans women like India Willoughby declaring they are a biological female already.

Words are meaningless unless they are correctly defined.

You may be satisfied but other women are not with very very good reason.

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 10:39

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 09:58

Right wing smear
https://fullfact.org/online/starmer-muslim-grooming-prosecution-crime/

In 2011, Nazir Afzal, who at the time was director of prosecutions in London, was made chief prosecutor for the north west. He subsequently overturned the 2009 decision and a total of nine men were later convicted.

In a recent interview Mr Afzal recalled: “The only way we could bring that case was to admit that we had failed these victims when they had first made a complaint in 2008. Keir was 100% behind the decision to publicly admit that we had got it wrong in the past.”

He was the DPP at the time, he was also head of the CPS when they decided not to prosecute Jimmy Saville, have you never heard of the saying “ the buck stops here”? Having experience of both of these cases he is fully aware of how devious sexual predators are and yet has still said that some women have a penis and that these TWAW should be allowed to use women’s safe spaces. He has said that he wants to protect rape victims but seems to have little real regard for women’s safety, and for someone who should know the lengths some males will go to in order to rape females, this is incomprehensible. He also did not condemn the threats of violence against Rosie Duffield that police took so seriously she was advised not to attend a party conference. The Labour GC women’s group have once again been refused a stall at the party conference, this does not suggest a turnaround in their support for trans ideology.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 10:40

And as @MissScarletInTheBallroom correctly points out lack of definition coming from a party that has told women who are gender critical that they don't want us to be members, who still say women can have a penis, called us rights hoarding dinosaurs we'd be really naive to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Thelnebriati · 25/04/2024 10:40

IMO, this thread has become a salutary lesson in how and why women have been kicked out of or walked away from organisations we used to support. It demonstrates the process of continuing goading and escalation involved in entryism.

Its no good pp saying 'if you wanted your organisations to remain single sex you should have stayed and fought the activists'. Its not good for peoples mental health to be treated like this.

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 10:41

duc748 · 25/04/2024 10:23

For those defending Labour, it might be instructive to ask, what about all the other countries where GI has caught hold big-time, like NZ and Canada. Who was responsible there? Actually it was That Nice Jacinda who we all praised to the skies on Covid. Similar in Canada. It is left/liberal parties world-wide (and it gives me no pleasure to say this) who have been responsible for bowing to sectional interests and bringing this awful legislation in. So they should own it. The Labour Party is no different.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

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