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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
Signalbox · 25/04/2024 07:25

lifeturnsonadime · 24/04/2024 22:15

No I don't feel attacked Adam, this is an internet forum where people have differing opinions, some of them are strong because these are issues that matter to us.

Women's rights to single sex spaces and the impact of gender ideology on autistic children particularly matter to me for some very personal reasons. I have a daughter who has been impacted, she also happens to be a school refuser so my heart goes out to the girls who feel unable to attend school when on their periods due to the lack of bathroom privacy. Education is important and my heart goes out that some girls are missing education as a result of this issue.

I don't think it is good enough that the Labour party don't care about the impact of this issue on girls & women and I'm not impressed with women who brush it under the carpet as being not important enough either.

Shouting down women as being right wing or closet Tories or whatever for having boundaries for ourselves and for our daughters because we won't hold our nose and vote labour anyway is no way to win your argument. It's rude and judgemental. But it is important posts stand in the interest of having a conversation and it is important that readers understand that Labour activists are using these tactics.

It does remind me of the Brexit situation where remainers were talking about Brexiteers being 'turkey's voting for Christmas'. That's no way to win over hearts and minds. Threads like this which effectively are attempting to shame women who have boundaries wrt women and children's single sex spaces into voting for a party who we fundamentally disagree with on this issue has a similar ring to it.

Edited

💯 perfectly articulated.

On the plus side it seems unlikely that OP is convincing anyone.

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 07:30

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 06:40

You...think British women have been tricked by the American right wing and (checks notes) Russia, into believing that their rights matter and that they are entitled to say no to men?

Maybe it's Bill Gates' influence on me after I had the Covid jab? 🤔 🤨

illinivich · 25/04/2024 07:37

NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 02:51

So, the GRA was passed in 2004 - that's a while ago. Who's been in power since then? Why is everything such a muddle now?

  1. Because there's an election looming.
  2. Because the US right-wing, influenced by Russia, has been messing with UK politics and the minds of the population.

That's it.

Since 2004 and now we have had a labour government, a coalition government with conservatives and liberal Democrats and a conservation government.

So basical all major parties have been in power and contributed to the 'muddle'.

I don't know why you think the muddle is just happening now? Its a policy that been causing women and children problems for years, and has been talked about for years.

Its very strange that you think the conspiracy is women demanding the word women doesnt include men, and not the mass decision by all western governments to declare a man can be a woman.

Merrymouse · 25/04/2024 07:50

NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 02:51

So, the GRA was passed in 2004 - that's a while ago. Who's been in power since then? Why is everything such a muddle now?

  1. Because there's an election looming.
  2. Because the US right-wing, influenced by Russia, has been messing with UK politics and the minds of the population.

That's it.

Ah the ‘left wing women can’t possibly have been standing up for their rights for years. Let’s pay attention to some opportunistic Johnny come lately right wing men!’ argument.

Nellodee · 25/04/2024 07:52

I am as gc as they come (said knowingly and ironically) but I think it’s naive to think that Russia doesn’t purposefully stoke culture wars to destabilise its competitors. I don’t believe the fight to protect women’s rights is a culture war, but I definitely think there are bad actors using it as a culture war. Given the known ability of social media to influence opinion, it’s logical that unscrupulous people (Russia, clients of companies like Cambridge Analytics) will attempt to tap into that ability. Civil war in the us would undoubtedly be a wet dream for Putin and a green card for Russia to pursue its own interests without limits elsewhere in the world.

This doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to have come to your own well researched conclusions (that may or may not at some point intersect with an opinion that one of these bad actors is temporarily pushing to a particular group of people for their own nefarious reasons). It’s also not impossible that these bad actors could be promoting both sides of a culture war at the same time.

Alexandra2001 · 25/04/2024 08:04

Dineasair · 24/04/2024 23:41

The Labour Party are responsible for putting the GRA in place and therefore are the cause of the problem. Keir Starmer was the one who went on tv to say that it wasn’t right to say that only women have a cervix and that some women have a penis. Angela Rayner is a fervent supporter of the Trans ideology and Annalise Dodds has been clear about pushing for a so called conversion therapy ban. How is it misrepresenting Labour to say that it’s not on the side of women’s rights when they repeatedly put trans rights above the rights of women? Adam is constantly banging on about allowing trans women in women’s toilets etc, how is what I have said not true?

Indeed they are and the Tories have had 14 years to repeal or change it, the Tores latest statement is that the GRA strikes the right balance...... so how exactly is it the fault of Starmer????

The Tories will fund the NI cuts with further cuts to public services & will fund the Defence spending commitment with more cuts and 70,000 job loses in the civil service (which of course includes anyone who works for the Govt.....local, fire, nhs, education...)

So whilst Labours position might not be perfect for you or @lifeturnsonadime ... the point is if you don't support Labour you will get another 5 years of the Tories and their track record is appalling, with no changes to the GRA, more cuts to DV and Rape centres, a worse NHS, worse cancer treatment rates, more kids in poverty.... thats their legacy after 14years... it isn't about to change.

Underthinker · 25/04/2024 08:14

I don’t believe the fight to protect women’s rights is a culture war, but I definitely think there are bad actors using it as a culture war.

Leave Emma Watson out of this.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 08:23

It’s also not impossible that these bad actors could be promoting both sides of a culture war at the same time.

I'd say it's a 100% certainty Russia and probably China are amplifying and inflaming both sides. Or in the case of Genderism, all three sides.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 08:23

Underthinker · 25/04/2024 08:14

I don’t believe the fight to protect women’s rights is a culture war, but I definitely think there are bad actors using it as a culture war.

Leave Emma Watson out of this.

😂

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 08:35

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 07:30

Maybe it's Bill Gates' influence on me after I had the Covid jab? 🤔 🤨

I reckon it's the 5G, personally.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 08:36

Alexandra2001 · 25/04/2024 08:04

Indeed they are and the Tories have had 14 years to repeal or change it, the Tores latest statement is that the GRA strikes the right balance...... so how exactly is it the fault of Starmer????

The Tories will fund the NI cuts with further cuts to public services & will fund the Defence spending commitment with more cuts and 70,000 job loses in the civil service (which of course includes anyone who works for the Govt.....local, fire, nhs, education...)

So whilst Labours position might not be perfect for you or @lifeturnsonadime ... the point is if you don't support Labour you will get another 5 years of the Tories and their track record is appalling, with no changes to the GRA, more cuts to DV and Rape centres, a worse NHS, worse cancer treatment rates, more kids in poverty.... thats their legacy after 14years... it isn't about to change.

IT SHOULD NOT BE A BINARY CHOICE BETWEEN SUPPORTING AN ANTI-WOMAN PARTY WITH ANTI-WOMAN POLICIES, OR ANOTHER FIVE YEARS OF THE TORIES.

WHY ISN'T LABOUR A PRO-WOMAN PARTY?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 08:36

Sorry for shouting, I just get so frustrated by this line of argument.

illinivich · 25/04/2024 08:39

Its always assumed that the 'deplorables' are the ones influenced by russian propaganda, not the woke.

That we are playing into Russian hands when complaining that our children are taugh gender ideology, rather than gender ideology itself could be a propaganda tool.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 08:59

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 08:36

IT SHOULD NOT BE A BINARY CHOICE BETWEEN SUPPORTING AN ANTI-WOMAN PARTY WITH ANTI-WOMAN POLICIES, OR ANOTHER FIVE YEARS OF THE TORIES.

WHY ISN'T LABOUR A PRO-WOMAN PARTY?

Absolutely.

It's ludicrous to suggest that Labour couldn't be all of the great things that the Tories aren't AND resolve this.

I am also getting frustrated with @BIossomtoes for constantly saying that we are misrepresenting Labour who are being clear.

They are not being clear. Blossoms is ignoring posts which demonstrate the lack of clarity. I don't think that Blossoms is stupid but telling us that we are misrepresenting matters which sections of the press agree are unclear is driving me mad.

If Labour gave clarity on these issues I might be able to vote for them. For avoidance of doubt whilst Dodds has stated that Labour thinks it is important for women to have single sex spaces where it is 'reasonable' she has not clarified what Labour considers to amount to a reasonable single sex space. My guess is that this will not include toilets so we will continue to have girls skipping school when on their periods and failing to drink at school to avoid toilets. My bottom line is that this totally and utterly unacceptable. We don't know what Labour's position is on other single sex spaces is either. It is not misrepresenting ANYTHING to point this lack of clarity out.

She also has not stated what happens to men who have GRCs with the legal sex of women or why they are persisting with making the process easier if this confers no benefits. It makes zero sense on the one had to make a man a legal woman and then say, oh your birth certificate says you are a women but you are not really one when it comes to 'reasonable' spaces.

The other big issue for me is so called 'conversion therapy'. If Labour do ban all forms then gender confused children in the light of Cass could be left with no support because any gentle prodding of what might be the cause of the gender issues might be deemed conversion. Psychologists and Drs need clarification of what this means otherwise children are going to be left high and dry on this. Streeting has done a reverse ferret to a degree but so far as I know the official line is that 'all forms of conversion will be banned'.

Then they could do with apologising to Rosie Duffield and women in general for telling us they didn't want our vote/ membership for even having these concerns.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 09:02

Nellodee · 25/04/2024 07:52

I am as gc as they come (said knowingly and ironically) but I think it’s naive to think that Russia doesn’t purposefully stoke culture wars to destabilise its competitors. I don’t believe the fight to protect women’s rights is a culture war, but I definitely think there are bad actors using it as a culture war. Given the known ability of social media to influence opinion, it’s logical that unscrupulous people (Russia, clients of companies like Cambridge Analytics) will attempt to tap into that ability. Civil war in the us would undoubtedly be a wet dream for Putin and a green card for Russia to pursue its own interests without limits elsewhere in the world.

This doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to have come to your own well researched conclusions (that may or may not at some point intersect with an opinion that one of these bad actors is temporarily pushing to a particular group of people for their own nefarious reasons). It’s also not impossible that these bad actors could be promoting both sides of a culture war at the same time.

The thing is, there shouldn't even be a culture war over what a woman is.

The fact that there currently is a culture war is 100% the fault of the left.

The American right wing, or Russia, or the Tories, or whoever else you might want to blame, would not be able to make political capital out of knowing what a woman is if the political left hadn't lost the fucking plot and started pretending not to know what a woman is!

It's like moaning that your political enemies are trying to gather support by saying that the earth is spherical. Well, yes, they'll try to get one over on you however they can. The real question is, why are you pretending the earth is flat and allowing your opponents to score such easy points against you?

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 09:32

AdamRyan · 24/04/2024 23:06

NHS graphs in here. If the past performance is anything to go by, yes Labour will reduce the NHS waiting times.

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1606223967903260673?lang=en

Part of the reason I like Starmer is because of what he did to support rape victims when he was DPP.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/16/justice-for-victims-of-rape

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/13/false-allegations-rape-domestic-violence-rare

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/national/24246407.rape-convictions-rose-keir-starmer-becoming-cps-boss-leaving/

He actually has a track record in dealing with this; he's done things that made a real difference for victims (sadly mainly undone by Allison Saunders).

To me as someone who has reducing rape and sexual assault against women as a very high priority, it's a no brainer to vote for someone who's committed to halving violence against women and girls, and has the demonstrable track record that shows they can do that.

Are you actually kidding me here. Wasn’t Keir Starmer DPP when Rotherham was happening? Unbelievable!

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 09:35

I'm highly amused at the idea that I am being influenced the American Far Right or Russia or China not to vote Labour because they are stoking culture wars.

No, it's Labour that's stopping me from voting for them because of they way THEY have treated women over these issues.

Are we supposed to forget that Labour banned women's groups from having stands at the Labour Party Conference, are we supposed to forget that we have been called 'right's hoarding dinosaurs' and that it is 'not right to say only women have a Cervix' or 0.01% of women have a penis and that women who are gender critical has been told by Labour that we don't want their membership?

These things have all happened. Actually happened.

Perhaps Labour are being controlled by Russia and China but thinking these things are beyond the pale for the opposition party, particularly in the light of the harms being done to women by the impact of trans ideology, is not due to any external influence.

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 09:37

LilyBartsHatShop · 25/04/2024 03:47

@Bigcoatlady “I did not say the violence was perpetrated by women - although some is.”
Thank you for clarifying. The way you worded it in the post I quoted it was not at all clear to me that you were talking about male violence in women’s refuges. Just to clarify, traumatised women may, statistically, be more violent than women without a history of such severe trauma, but there is no way on god’s green earth that they are more violent than men as a class.
And another thing, women who have been involved with providing safe houses for women fleeing domestic violence for more than five minutes know that “women only” safe houses are not just places where only women can apply for a bed. They are places where no male person has access, ever. Knowledge of their location is guarded, to keep the women safe. When I was a teenager my mother, who is a vicar’s wife, knew where the nearest safe house was in our suburb because she helped women who came to the church in desperation, who needed a safe house. She didn’t tell me where it was, she didn’t tell my father where it was. My mother believed in wifely submission and told me once that women had been made to be the helpmeets of men. Can you believe it, gender ideology has so rotted the landscape of services for women fleeing violent men that a conservative evangelical woman in the 90s had more of a grasp of what “women only” means than a labour-voting, charity board sitting, right thinking, left wing, frontline worker, who by their own words is not a trans rights activist, in the 2020s.

Well said.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 09:44

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 09:35

I'm highly amused at the idea that I am being influenced the American Far Right or Russia or China not to vote Labour because they are stoking culture wars.

No, it's Labour that's stopping me from voting for them because of they way THEY have treated women over these issues.

Are we supposed to forget that Labour banned women's groups from having stands at the Labour Party Conference, are we supposed to forget that we have been called 'right's hoarding dinosaurs' and that it is 'not right to say only women have a Cervix' or 0.01% of women have a penis and that women who are gender critical has been told by Labour that we don't want their membership?

These things have all happened. Actually happened.

Perhaps Labour are being controlled by Russia and China but thinking these things are beyond the pale for the opposition party, particularly in the light of the harms being done to women by the impact of trans ideology, is not due to any external influence.

Absolutely.

Unless I am very much mistaken, neither the American far right nor the Russians held an invisible gun to the heads of Labour MPs and forced them to say such ludicrous things.

NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 09:46

Nellodee · 25/04/2024 07:52

I am as gc as they come (said knowingly and ironically) but I think it’s naive to think that Russia doesn’t purposefully stoke culture wars to destabilise its competitors. I don’t believe the fight to protect women’s rights is a culture war, but I definitely think there are bad actors using it as a culture war. Given the known ability of social media to influence opinion, it’s logical that unscrupulous people (Russia, clients of companies like Cambridge Analytics) will attempt to tap into that ability. Civil war in the us would undoubtedly be a wet dream for Putin and a green card for Russia to pursue its own interests without limits elsewhere in the world.

This doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to have come to your own well researched conclusions (that may or may not at some point intersect with an opinion that one of these bad actors is temporarily pushing to a particular group of people for their own nefarious reasons). It’s also not impossible that these bad actors could be promoting both sides of a culture war at the same time.

Exactly.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 09:53

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 09:02

The thing is, there shouldn't even be a culture war over what a woman is.

The fact that there currently is a culture war is 100% the fault of the left.

The American right wing, or Russia, or the Tories, or whoever else you might want to blame, would not be able to make political capital out of knowing what a woman is if the political left hadn't lost the fucking plot and started pretending not to know what a woman is!

It's like moaning that your political enemies are trying to gather support by saying that the earth is spherical. Well, yes, they'll try to get one over on you however they can. The real question is, why are you pretending the earth is flat and allowing your opponents to score such easy points against you?

100% the fault of the left?
Read the timeline in the OP again. Read what Anderson said last year

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lee-anderson-tories-election-trans-b2282185.html

Black and white thinking is no good for anyone

Lee Anderson says Tories should fight election on ‘culture wars’

Party no longer has ‘great ingredients’ like Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn, says deputy chairman

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lee-anderson-tories-election-trans-b2282185.html

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 09:55

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 09:53

100% the fault of the left?
Read the timeline in the OP again. Read what Anderson said last year

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lee-anderson-tories-election-trans-b2282185.html

Black and white thinking is no good for anyone

Adam, you're completely missing the point.

Yes, the Tories are profiting from the fact that Labour is spouting complete and utter nonsense in order to stoke a culture war.

They would not be able to do this if Labour were not spouting complete and utter nonsense.

The only way your opponent can get one over on you by knowing what a woman is if you don't know what a woman is, or are pretending not to.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 09:58

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 09:32

Are you actually kidding me here. Wasn’t Keir Starmer DPP when Rotherham was happening? Unbelievable!

Right wing smear
https://fullfact.org/online/starmer-muslim-grooming-prosecution-crime/

In 2011, Nazir Afzal, who at the time was director of prosecutions in London, was made chief prosecutor for the north west. He subsequently overturned the 2009 decision and a total of nine men were later convicted.

In a recent interview Mr Afzal recalled: “The only way we could bring that case was to admit that we had failed these victims when they had first made a complaint in 2008. Keir was 100% behind the decision to publicly admit that we had got it wrong in the past.”

No evidence Keir Starmer tried to block the prosecution of Muslim grooming gangs - Full Fact

Widely-shared posts on Facebook make an unsubstantiated claim about Mr Starmer’s work for the Crown Prosecution Service.

https://fullfact.org/online/starmer-muslim-grooming-prosecution-crime

OP posts:
NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 10:04

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

The fact that there currently is a culture war is 100% the fault of the left.

The American right wing, or Russia, or the Tories, or whoever else you might want to blame, would not be able to make political capital out of knowing what a woman is if the political left hadn't lost the fucking plot and started pretending not to know what a woman is!

The culture war is capitalising on whatever issues already existed. The aim is probe at any weaknesses in the fabric of societies, whether they be gender-based, or ethnic, religious or political (etc.) This is an issue that is percolating in most Western countries because of the reasons I stated before - not because of the political Left in Britain. It is global.

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