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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:06

BIossomtoes · 23/04/2024 12:05

So perhaps instead of complaining that people who ought to vote Labour aren't doing so, Labour needs to accept that no one, absolutely no one, owes their vote to Labour, and come up with some policies those people actually like.

Who’s complaining? Labour clearly has produced policies people actually like - that’s why they’re 20+ points ahead in the polls. The complaints I find ridiculous are those that go “Why won’t Labour care about what I care about?” when it’s such a minority concern that they really don’t need to.

They're 20 points ahead in the polls because people want the Tories out at any cost.

Thelnebriati · 23/04/2024 12:07

The legal definition of sex is not a minority concern.

As for 'labour bashing', many women used to be Party members, voters, and were kicked out for wanting the Labour Party to uphold existing laws and represent them.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:07

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 11:54

OK.

So let's go back to talking about the Tories vs Labour.

Cards on the table, so you can see where I'm coming from. I generally dislike and distrust most politicians, in general. I see them as a necessary evil, in that we need someone to run the country, democracy is the least worst way of electing a government, but generally speaking the kind of people who want to run for public office are not the best people for the job. That seems to be getting worse, not better, thanks to the social media era. Who would want to be a female MP when you can see how Rosie Duffield has been treated for stating biological facts, or how Anna Soubry was treated for her stance on Brexit? Not me.

I've never voted for the Tories or for Labour. I have leaned more towards Labour than the Tories but usually ended up voting Lib Dem because Labour can't win in my area. I have also previously voted for the Greens and the National Health Action Party.

Much like JK Rowling, my primary political focus used to be Brexit, and now it is women's rights and child safeguarding.

So.

The political landscape. Basically it's the Tories or Labour, with smaller parties pretty much farting around inconsequentially, unless you happen to live in Scotland or Wales.

What is the difference between the Tories and Labour?

The way I see it, the Tories tend to think about economic policies more in terms of, "How will this benefit me?" whereas Labour tend to think about economic policies in terms more in terms of, "How does this benefit society?"

This means that broadly speaking the Tories support a smaller state and lower taxes, whereas Labour are more in favour of tax and spend.

In theory, at least. In reality, both parties will be either constrained or liberated according to the prevailing economic conditions, and both parties will want to offer financial incentives to the electorate if they are actually interested in getting elected or re-elected, which the Tories clearly are.

When it comes to social policies, the position is far less clear.

The Tories are still obviously taking the, "How does this benefit me?" approach. And this is absolutely crucial to our understanding of why they do what they do. Clearly, there is no economic benefit to the Rwanda policy, for example. So why do they have that policy? To appeal to the electorate. Because they think it's a vote winner. And whilst people on the political left and in the media may be hand wringing about the Rwanda policy, the reality is that there are millions of people in this country who are very upset about boat people and want to be reassured that the government is doing something about it.

Similarly, with Brexit, the Tories could have imposed restrictions on immigration from EU countries well before Brexit. They chose not to, because there was no economic benefit in doing so. It was only in the wake of the referendum result that they decided on a policy of "taking back control of our borders" because that was what voters said they wanted, and the Tories wanted, above all things, to stay in power.

Where does the Tories' approach to gender issues fit into that? To a certain extent I think people like Theresa May wanted to support something which would have no economic cost, which they didn't particularly care about either way, but which could win support from people who did not already support the Tories. The reason the Tories have ditched their self ID policy and are making noises about single sex spaces and child safeguarding is because they have figured out that this is what a majority of people, and crucially, the overwhelming majority of people who might be persuaded to vote for them, want. They have realised that the people headbanging about trans rights will never vote for them anyway so they don't need to worry about them, and have decided to appeal to the silent majority instead.

What about Labour?

Well, it's more tricky.

The first point to note is that, from where I'm standing, they seem a lot less fussed about getting elected. So their social policies are generally formed from an ideological standpoint, often based on little more than what the left wing cultural zeitgeist says is "progressive" and see no need to deviate from that because eventually people will get sick of the Tories and they'll win an election by default.

That's just about where we are now. Despite the fact that people have apparently been really sick of the Tories for a really long time, Labour is only just now pulling ahead in the polls, and it doesn't appear to have anything to do with Labour actually offering policies that a majority of people actually support. People have just had enough of the Tories.

When they get elected - and I believe it is when, not if - they will interpret this as an endorsement of their policies, not a rejection of the Tories. And they will take the view that once they're in power they're safe for five years so they can do what they like.

That's where I see the real danger with regard to Labour's stance on women's rights in particular, and to a lesser extent child safeguarding. There's been a lot of reverse ferreting since the Cass report came out, and I believe that they have now realised there is essentially no political appetite from the electorate for the medical transitioning of children.

But I don't expect there to be any movement on women's rights, because for whatever reason, Labour clearly do not consider women's rights to be important. People who, in 2022 and 2023, are willing to say things like, "A small number of women have a penis", are not going to do a U-turn and say, "You know what, of course women don't have penises, women are female people and we need to ensure that we have proper legislation in place which both recognises women as a distinct, sex-based category in law and policy, and protects their sex based rights." They're just not.

And since the Lib Dems, the Green, the SNP and Plaid Cymru are even worse than Labour in this respect, that leaves feminists without a single viable option to vote for, unless they are comfortable enough with the Tories' other policies to vote for them.

I find that wholly unacceptable.

From my perspective if you read the material they have trailed over their manifesto, womens rights are front and centre:
Emily Thornberry:
https://www.emilythornberry.com/shadow-attorney-general/2023/10/10/making-the-law-work-for-women-my-labour-conference-speech-2023/

Angela Rayner:
https://labour.org.uk/updates/press-releases/angela-rayners-speech-at-labours-national-annual-womens-conference-2023/

Yvette Cooper:
https://labour.org.uk/updates/press-releases/yvette-coopers-speech-at-labour-conference/

Annaliese Dodds:
https://labour.org.uk/updates/press-releases/anneliese-dodds-speech-at-labour-party-conference/

I joined after their conference. Because it had womens rights all over it. In lieu of the manifesto, the conference is what we get to go on. This ^ is what Labour gave me.

Sunak gave me "a man is a man and a woman is a woman". I know. What are you going to do about it?

I understand previous members feeling disillusioned. I don't understand posters saying Labour aren't supporting womens rights. It is nonsense.

Making the Law Work for Women – My Labour Conference Speech 2023 - Emily Thornberry

Friends, it’s been a year, but I’ve got to say, it feels like nothing’s changed. Matt Hancock’s still making a prat of himself. Liz Truss is still having breaks from reality in public. Suella’s still on manoeuvres against Rishi. Rishi’s still too frigh...

https://www.emilythornberry.com/shadow-attorney-general/2023/10/10/making-the-law-work-for-women-my-labour-conference-speech-2023

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:09

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:07

From my perspective if you read the material they have trailed over their manifesto, womens rights are front and centre:
Emily Thornberry:
https://www.emilythornberry.com/shadow-attorney-general/2023/10/10/making-the-law-work-for-women-my-labour-conference-speech-2023/

Angela Rayner:
https://labour.org.uk/updates/press-releases/angela-rayners-speech-at-labours-national-annual-womens-conference-2023/

Yvette Cooper:
https://labour.org.uk/updates/press-releases/yvette-coopers-speech-at-labour-conference/

Annaliese Dodds:
https://labour.org.uk/updates/press-releases/anneliese-dodds-speech-at-labour-party-conference/

I joined after their conference. Because it had womens rights all over it. In lieu of the manifesto, the conference is what we get to go on. This ^ is what Labour gave me.

Sunak gave me "a man is a man and a woman is a woman". I know. What are you going to do about it?

I understand previous members feeling disillusioned. I don't understand posters saying Labour aren't supporting womens rights. It is nonsense.

Don't you get it?

"Women's rights" is absolutely, utterly meaningless if you are using a different definition of the word "woman" to most other people.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:13

No it isn't.
If you have a policy to prosecute rapists and repeat domestic abusers, that is a womens rights policy as women are overwhelmingly victims.

If you have a policy for equal workers rights for zero hours contracts, that's a womens rights policy as women make up most of that workforce.

If you have a policy to protect people reporting sexual harassment in the workplace, in the same way as other whistle blowers, that's a women's rights policy as most of those reporters are women

This statement about "you have to define women to protect their rights" is not logically correct. It's important, but lots of progress on women's rights can be made without it.

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Thelnebriati · 23/04/2024 12:16

So there you have it. When Labour talk about 'women' they mean all women, bigots.

And thats why the envelope stuffers were shunned, and why we have to be tarred and feathered because we just. won't. shut. up.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:27

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:13

No it isn't.
If you have a policy to prosecute rapists and repeat domestic abusers, that is a womens rights policy as women are overwhelmingly victims.

If you have a policy for equal workers rights for zero hours contracts, that's a womens rights policy as women make up most of that workforce.

If you have a policy to protect people reporting sexual harassment in the workplace, in the same way as other whistle blowers, that's a women's rights policy as most of those reporters are women

This statement about "you have to define women to protect their rights" is not logically correct. It's important, but lots of progress on women's rights can be made without it.

It's meaningless because, to quote Sall Grover, "If you think that women have penises, I won’t believe a single word you say about anything else. Because if you will lie about something so obvious, I will assume you lie about everything."

Sure, they might have policies which could in theory benefit women. But we can't trust anything they say, and we don't have any detail about how they will deliver these policies or how they will pay for them.

Take any policy which requires a greater investment in police resources, for example. Where is the money coming from? There doesn't seem to be any. And Labour won't even be able to say, "We couldn't deliver our flagship policies because there was no money left", because people will just laugh and remind them of the note Liam Byrne left in 2010 saying, "I'm afraid there is no money."

What they could do is say, for example, "We will scrap the concept of "non crime hate incidents" to free up existing police resources for dealing with actual crime."

Or, "We will amend the Equality Act to clarify that the protected characteristic of "sex" refers to biological sex, and to mandate that organisations must provide single sex spaces and services in certain situations, for example, rape crisis organisations."

Or, "We will ensure that women cannot be penalised or discriminated against for requiring single sex toilets or changing rooms in the workplace."

These things wouldn't actually cost a lot of money but would be concrete policies which can actually be implemented and would indicate that Labour has heard and understood women's concerns about the erasure of women as a biological sex class in law and policy, and the erosion of their hard won sex based rights.

But there is no indication that these things will be among Labour's policies.

Instead we have a lot of waffle and no detail about how they plan to deliver these things.

https://twitter.com/salltweets/status/1509281829206913029?lang=fr

Merrymouse · 23/04/2024 12:31

This statement about "you have to define women to protect their rights" is not logically correct. It's important, but lots of progress on women's rights can be made without it.

Why would you try to make progress without it though?

For one thing, if you are going to analyse the statements you have made what is it about women that means that they are more likely to be victims of domestic abuse and on zero hours contracts? You can’t drill down and analyse what interventions are needed if you pretend ‘woman’ is just an identity that nobody can explain.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:32

Thelnebriati · 23/04/2024 12:16

So there you have it. When Labour talk about 'women' they mean all women, bigots.

And thats why the envelope stuffers were shunned, and why we have to be tarred and feathered because we just. won't. shut. up.

I'm not some kind of official spokesperson Confused and I'm not calling anyone a bigot. I'm stating my opinion. Anti-Labour posters don't like it, can't help that.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:32

Merrymouse · 23/04/2024 12:31

This statement about "you have to define women to protect their rights" is not logically correct. It's important, but lots of progress on women's rights can be made without it.

Why would you try to make progress without it though?

For one thing, if you are going to analyse the statements you have made what is it about women that means that they are more likely to be victims of domestic abuse and on zero hours contracts? You can’t drill down and analyse what interventions are needed if you pretend ‘woman’ is just an identity that nobody can explain.

Exactly.

It's not because they wear frilly knickers and like rom coms, is it?

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:35

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:27

It's meaningless because, to quote Sall Grover, "If you think that women have penises, I won’t believe a single word you say about anything else. Because if you will lie about something so obvious, I will assume you lie about everything."

Sure, they might have policies which could in theory benefit women. But we can't trust anything they say, and we don't have any detail about how they will deliver these policies or how they will pay for them.

Take any policy which requires a greater investment in police resources, for example. Where is the money coming from? There doesn't seem to be any. And Labour won't even be able to say, "We couldn't deliver our flagship policies because there was no money left", because people will just laugh and remind them of the note Liam Byrne left in 2010 saying, "I'm afraid there is no money."

What they could do is say, for example, "We will scrap the concept of "non crime hate incidents" to free up existing police resources for dealing with actual crime."

Or, "We will amend the Equality Act to clarify that the protected characteristic of "sex" refers to biological sex, and to mandate that organisations must provide single sex spaces and services in certain situations, for example, rape crisis organisations."

Or, "We will ensure that women cannot be penalised or discriminated against for requiring single sex toilets or changing rooms in the workplace."

These things wouldn't actually cost a lot of money but would be concrete policies which can actually be implemented and would indicate that Labour has heard and understood women's concerns about the erasure of women as a biological sex class in law and policy, and the erosion of their hard won sex based rights.

But there is no indication that these things will be among Labour's policies.

Instead we have a lot of waffle and no detail about how they plan to deliver these things.

Ah OK. You don't believe them is a different kettle of fish to "they have no policies".

I can see why you are in a pickle if you are applying Sall Grover's logic to politics. You really only do have Reform and PoW to choose from.

I'm a bit more pragmatic and will go for the party with policy on women's rights, over those with nothing. I can always not vote for them/leave the party if it turns out they are lying.

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JessS1990 · 23/04/2024 12:38

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 11:39

I'm not talking about you - FWR is not a hive mind. There are a lot of not-at-all-closeted right wing voters on here.

Once one has seen a few posters who spent months answering But Jeremy Corbyn, followed by But Keir had a Beer, and then moved on to But Labour don't know what a woman is, one is I find inclined to take a rather jaundiced view and think that it is just another slogan they have hitched themselves to.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:40

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:32

Exactly.

It's not because they wear frilly knickers and like rom coms, is it?

So you think you have to have a word for "men" to crack down on rapists? Rather than,cracking down on rapists who by definition are of the sex with a penis?

Or you have to have a word for "women" before you can take action against maternal mortality? Otherwise how can you possibly know which sex ate at risk of dying?

This is reverse TRA logic and makes no real world sense whatsoever.

I guess we'll just have to put up with being raped/exploited and otherwise harmed in the meantime while feminists argue about dictionary definitions.

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BIossomtoes · 23/04/2024 12:45

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:06

They're 20 points ahead in the polls because people want the Tories out at any cost.

Exactly. I rest my case.

Thelnebriati · 23/04/2024 12:46

Women should never have been put into this position in the first place. It shouldn't be left to us to defend our rights, and its noticeable how so few men are prepared to stand up for safeguarding.

I posted this elsewhere;
''The main difference between the Tories and Labour is that the Tories have slowly dismantled the system, while Labour want to push it off a cliff.
So when it comes to election time, people who are scared of falling off a cliff have voted Tory in the hopes the slow dismantling can be stopped or reversed.''

I'm not hopeful for the future. It will be hard to row back without some massive authoritarian crack down and new ID system, and the cynic in my thinks that is the intended end goal.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/04/2024 12:46

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 08:35

"Decent males" 😂I'm not sure of the proportions, but a sizeable chunk of the male population are not decent. They watch porn, or use prostitutes, or abuse their wives, or are violent, or rape people. Quite a lot of them watch filmed CSEA.

I'm not sure any plan based around "Decent males" is worth the paper it's written on

Do you really not understand?

Your assertion is that since some TW feel entitled to be in women-only spaces, and some men don't care to be "decent", they will enter regardless of any rules that ban them so we might as well not bother.

I agree with the first part of this but not the second.

Compare and contrast.

Scenario 1: Women-only facilities are for female people only. Males, including TW, are not supposed to be there. Whether this is an actual law or social contract isn't relevant to the scenario. What is relevant is that everyone knows this is the rule, and everyone knows everyone else knows.

Most men, including most TW, are decent and will stay out even if they disagree it's necessary.

Some are not decent but are not confident enough to defy the social pressure so will not enter.

Some men will enter anyway.

Depending on the circumstances and the individuals, women in the space will: not care, care but say nothing, tell the man to leave, go and find an authority figure to tell the man to leave, or leave themselves.

If the man is a TW it's possible they are one of the few who are not ummediately detected as male. However the more clothes removed and the more they interact with the women, the less likely their sex remaining undetected becomes.

Scenario 2: All TW are entitled to use women's spaces. Women cannot object. Any man can claim to be a TW. When a male enters women's only options are to put up with him or leave themselves.

In Scenario 1, multiple layers interact to mean all males can be challenged so very few gain access.

In Scenario 2, no males can be challenged so all males have access.

Crucially, scenario 1 does not require "policing", nor 100% compliance, nor all males to be "decent" to be significantly better than scenario 2 at protecting woman-only spaces.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:46

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:40

So you think you have to have a word for "men" to crack down on rapists? Rather than,cracking down on rapists who by definition are of the sex with a penis?

Or you have to have a word for "women" before you can take action against maternal mortality? Otherwise how can you possibly know which sex ate at risk of dying?

This is reverse TRA logic and makes no real world sense whatsoever.

I guess we'll just have to put up with being raped/exploited and otherwise harmed in the meantime while feminists argue about dictionary definitions.

Well, Adam, there are in fact some women who would not have been raped if we were all very clear about the fact that women don't have penises.

Such as the woman who was mysteriously raped on a single sex NHS ward even though "no males were present", for example.

And we also need to accurately define who is a man and who is a woman in order to accurately record crime statistics, particularly in relation to violent offences, as well as determine which prison someone should be housed in.

In case you need reminding, a person with a penis is a man.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:47

BIossomtoes · 23/04/2024 12:45

Exactly. I rest my case.

That's all you've got?

"At least they're not the Tories"?

Christ alive.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:48

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:35

Ah OK. You don't believe them is a different kettle of fish to "they have no policies".

I can see why you are in a pickle if you are applying Sall Grover's logic to politics. You really only do have Reform and PoW to choose from.

I'm a bit more pragmatic and will go for the party with policy on women's rights, over those with nothing. I can always not vote for them/leave the party if it turns out they are lying.

I am also pragmatic, Adam.

Unfortunately my priority has become to keep the Lib Dems out at all costs, which means my only decision is whether I can afford myself the luxury of a spoilt ballot or whether I have to hold my nose and vote Tory for the first time ever.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:50

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/04/2024 12:46

Do you really not understand?

Your assertion is that since some TW feel entitled to be in women-only spaces, and some men don't care to be "decent", they will enter regardless of any rules that ban them so we might as well not bother.

I agree with the first part of this but not the second.

Compare and contrast.

Scenario 1: Women-only facilities are for female people only. Males, including TW, are not supposed to be there. Whether this is an actual law or social contract isn't relevant to the scenario. What is relevant is that everyone knows this is the rule, and everyone knows everyone else knows.

Most men, including most TW, are decent and will stay out even if they disagree it's necessary.

Some are not decent but are not confident enough to defy the social pressure so will not enter.

Some men will enter anyway.

Depending on the circumstances and the individuals, women in the space will: not care, care but say nothing, tell the man to leave, go and find an authority figure to tell the man to leave, or leave themselves.

If the man is a TW it's possible they are one of the few who are not ummediately detected as male. However the more clothes removed and the more they interact with the women, the less likely their sex remaining undetected becomes.

Scenario 2: All TW are entitled to use women's spaces. Women cannot object. Any man can claim to be a TW. When a male enters women's only options are to put up with him or leave themselves.

In Scenario 1, multiple layers interact to mean all males can be challenged so very few gain access.

In Scenario 2, no males can be challenged so all males have access.

Crucially, scenario 1 does not require "policing", nor 100% compliance, nor all males to be "decent" to be significantly better than scenario 2 at protecting woman-only spaces.

The law already exists to exclude TW from womens spaces.

It either isn't being used or it is ineffective.

I don't agree more legislation is the answer. Ymmv. Your choice. Bored of talking about toilets.

OP posts:
JessS1990 · 23/04/2024 12:51

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:47

That's all you've got?

"At least they're not the Tories"?

Christ alive.

A previous poster was suggesting that was why Labour had a 20 point lead in the polls.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:51

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:50

The law already exists to exclude TW from womens spaces.

It either isn't being used or it is ineffective.

I don't agree more legislation is the answer. Ymmv. Your choice. Bored of talking about toilets.

That's because the law gives organisations the right to provide single sex spaces, but imposes no obligation on them to do so. That, combined with relentless lobbying from the likes of Stonewall and threats by local authorities to withhold funding if they fail to make everything inclusive of trans women, means they are not doing so.

Legislating to require them to do so would clearly solve that problem. I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 12:51

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:46

Well, Adam, there are in fact some women who would not have been raped if we were all very clear about the fact that women don't have penises.

Such as the woman who was mysteriously raped on a single sex NHS ward even though "no males were present", for example.

And we also need to accurately define who is a man and who is a woman in order to accurately record crime statistics, particularly in relation to violent offences, as well as determine which prison someone should be housed in.

In case you need reminding, a person with a penis is a man.

Missing my point but never mind.

The effective decriminalisation of rape in this country is a scandal and one of my voting priorities is to vote for a party with a plan to fix it. At the moment, that's only Labour.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:53

JessS1990 · 23/04/2024 12:51

A previous poster was suggesting that was why Labour had a 20 point lead in the polls.

That was me, and yes, it is why they have a 20 point lead in the polls.

I'm saying it would be nice if they were offering a bit more than just not being the Tories.

They haven't actually done anything concrete to get elected for the last decade. They've just sat on their bottoms and waited for people to get sick of the Tories.

Thelnebriati · 23/04/2024 12:53

So you think you have to have a word for "men" to crack down on rapists?

Why 'crack down on rapists?' Why not 'lets prevent rapists from accessing victims' and 'lets raise men who don't want to rape'?
Karen White repeatedly raped a woman while on a single sex psychiatric ward. She was injured so badly she fears she will never be able to have children.

Those wards are staffed 24/7.

Why are you so hell bent on removing sex classes? Whats your justification?

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