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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
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JessS1990 · 23/04/2024 10:52

BIossomtoes · 23/04/2024 10:37

No. Have you not read about the Rwanda bill debacle?

I refuse to believe that anyone who seems to have something of an interest in politics could lack awareness of the government trying to deport people who used to work for them to Rwanda.

BIossomtoes · 23/04/2024 10:53

JessS1990 · 23/04/2024 10:52

I refuse to believe that anyone who seems to have something of an interest in politics could lack awareness of the government trying to deport people who used to work for them to Rwanda.

It’s what happens with tunnel vision.

JessS1990 · 23/04/2024 10:55

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 10:45

And you think Labour is actually going to do that, do you?

Edited

I see we are in agreement that the Prime Minister after Starmer will be a Labour one. Starmer will have dealt with HoLs reform, the opportunity is then there for his successor to be more radical with both single market membership and voting system reform.
Of course if PR were in action now, the Tories and Reform would get more seats at the next GE than they will under the current system.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 10:58

I'm so bored of pro-Tory/Reform posters pretending to be feminists. I'm also curious how many men now post on the board under the guise of "GC".

At least the lack of engagement with bigcoats point shows the board politics up in glorious technicolor.

And MNHQ moving the thread into here shows the majority of posters on wider MN aren't interested - I'm asking the OP on chat got lots of reports.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 11:03

JessS1990 · 23/04/2024 10:52

I refuse to believe that anyone who seems to have something of an interest in politics could lack awareness of the government trying to deport people who used to work for them to Rwanda.

Well you seem quite hazy on the details yourself.

How is the Rwanda policy relevant to this thread?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 11:05

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 10:58

I'm so bored of pro-Tory/Reform posters pretending to be feminists. I'm also curious how many men now post on the board under the guise of "GC".

At least the lack of engagement with bigcoats point shows the board politics up in glorious technicolor.

And MNHQ moving the thread into here shows the majority of posters on wider MN aren't interested - I'm asking the OP on chat got lots of reports.

Such as?

I've never voted Tory or Reform and am most definitely a feminist.

I'm so tired of people who are pro Labour to the exclusion of all else that they are willing to overlook Labour's atrocious views on women's rights.

Especially if they are a Labour member and could be campaigning from within to make Labour the pro women party that it should be.

It's absolutely appalling that feminists have no adequate political representation in this country.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 11:06

JessS1990 · 23/04/2024 10:55

I see we are in agreement that the Prime Minister after Starmer will be a Labour one. Starmer will have dealt with HoLs reform, the opportunity is then there for his successor to be more radical with both single market membership and voting system reform.
Of course if PR were in action now, the Tories and Reform would get more seats at the next GE than they will under the current system.

Edited

PR isn't in place now which means it is irrelevant for the purposes of the next general election.

If you believe Labour supports PR, why can't they introduce it in the next parliament?

Underthinker · 23/04/2024 11:08

I'm also curious how many men now post on the board under the guise of "GC".
For my part I've said before in replies to you (but I wouldn't expect you to remember) that I am male and GC. My best intention is to avoid posting on the feminism boards but I do a bad job at that and get drawn into the debates (and also this thread wasn't on feminism when I joined it). So that's at least one.

The part about being pro Tory/Reform or pretending to be a feminist doesn't apply to me though.

illinivich · 23/04/2024 11:14

MN usually move everything mentioning trans here because some posters were keen to have all trans related threads in one place.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 11:21

Underthinker · 23/04/2024 11:08

I'm also curious how many men now post on the board under the guise of "GC".
For my part I've said before in replies to you (but I wouldn't expect you to remember) that I am male and GC. My best intention is to avoid posting on the feminism boards but I do a bad job at that and get drawn into the debates (and also this thread wasn't on feminism when I joined it). So that's at least one.

The part about being pro Tory/Reform or pretending to be a feminist doesn't apply to me though.

I'm not implying men shouldn't post here at all! I just think the demographic has considerably shifted.

My best intention is not to post on labour bashing threads on here but then there is such egregious rubbish posted by some that I get drawn in also!

You've said some thought provoking things. As have lots of other posters Wine

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 11:22

illinivich · 23/04/2024 11:14

MN usually move everything mentioning trans here because some posters were keen to have all trans related threads in one place.

Edited

Yeah I know. It broke the board even more. That was partly why I wanted a feminist chat - so posters who had hidden this board would still see other feminist threads. Never mind though. Water under the bridge now.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 11:23

I'm harking back to my own golden era now 😂

OP posts:
Merrymouse · 23/04/2024 11:23

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 09:03

This is another harking back to a golden age that never existed point.

Male shame, male decency and male respect for female needs are no longer more powerful forces than male entitlement.
Never have been. Men (as a class) don't really notice or care about the needs of women (as a class). This is feminism 101.

Unfortunately, the social contract genie can be very difficult to put back in the bottle once it's out. The social contract genie was never in the bottle in the first place. Some TW and other males have always used womens spaces when it suited them, for whatever reason.

Perhaps, but the idea that choice of toilet or changing room should never be challenged, (as advised on some university notices), is recent.

To be clear I don’t blame this shift entirely on the Labour Party. The Conservatives allowed the situation to develop and then kicked a ball into an open goal when the Labour Party failed to defend and advocate for the implementation of legislation they had written.

songaboutjam · 23/04/2024 11:28

I'm so bored of pro-Tory/Reform posters pretending to be feminists.

Being politically homeless / disillusioned lefties, feeling like we're in an abusive relationship with Labour or thinking Labour has sold out to rich men at the expense of women and workers, is not the same as being pro-Tory and it's very disingenuous to insinuate it is.

We told you all this on the other thread and you told us we were wrong, so I'm not really surprised we're now being dismissed as closet right wingers.

If we're good girls and bring the men their tea and biscuits, will we get a look-in after the revolution?

BIossomtoes · 23/04/2024 11:37

I don’t blame this shift entirely on the Labour Party.

That’s exceedingly generous of you - given that they haven’t been in government for 14 years.

Merrymouse · 23/04/2024 11:38

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 09:06

Nope. I am just trying to understand what's in the mind of posters adamant that a change to the law will Save Our Toilets!

Personally I don't think "asking nicely" will achieve much. Women have been "asking nicely" for all sorts for years, men don't care.

But as I'm not the one all het up about toilets, that's luckily not my problem to solve.

Edited

So you agree on prisons/hospital wards/rape crisis centre/sport etc, but just question how pragmatic it is to try to strictly enforce sex separation in toilets and changing rooms?

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 11:39

songaboutjam · 23/04/2024 11:28

I'm so bored of pro-Tory/Reform posters pretending to be feminists.

Being politically homeless / disillusioned lefties, feeling like we're in an abusive relationship with Labour or thinking Labour has sold out to rich men at the expense of women and workers, is not the same as being pro-Tory and it's very disingenuous to insinuate it is.

We told you all this on the other thread and you told us we were wrong, so I'm not really surprised we're now being dismissed as closet right wingers.

If we're good girls and bring the men their tea and biscuits, will we get a look-in after the revolution?

I'm not talking about you - FWR is not a hive mind. There are a lot of not-at-all-closeted right wing voters on here.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 11:39

Merrymouse · 23/04/2024 11:38

So you agree on prisons/hospital wards/rape crisis centre/sport etc, but just question how pragmatic it is to try to strictly enforce sex separation in toilets and changing rooms?

Edited

My position is clear.

OP posts:
Merrymouse · 23/04/2024 11:51

BIossomtoes · 23/04/2024 11:37

I don’t blame this shift entirely on the Labour Party.

That’s exceedingly generous of you - given that they haven’t been in government for 14 years.

I don’t understand your point - can you give an example of anyone in the Labour Party piping up and saying

‘actually we wrote the legislation and in situations where sex matters, there is a clear distinction between sex based rights and the rights that can be acquired through possession of a gender recognition certificate, therefore trans women are not women.’

The point is that Labour are supposed to be the party that cares about equality and rights law, but when left wing women raised concerns, crickets.

Merrymouse · 23/04/2024 11:51

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 11:39

My position is clear.

So yes or no?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 11:54

OK.

So let's go back to talking about the Tories vs Labour.

Cards on the table, so you can see where I'm coming from. I generally dislike and distrust most politicians, in general. I see them as a necessary evil, in that we need someone to run the country, democracy is the least worst way of electing a government, but generally speaking the kind of people who want to run for public office are not the best people for the job. That seems to be getting worse, not better, thanks to the social media era. Who would want to be a female MP when you can see how Rosie Duffield has been treated for stating biological facts, or how Anna Soubry was treated for her stance on Brexit? Not me.

I've never voted for the Tories or for Labour. I have leaned more towards Labour than the Tories but usually ended up voting Lib Dem because Labour can't win in my area. I have also previously voted for the Greens and the National Health Action Party.

Much like JK Rowling, my primary political focus used to be Brexit, and now it is women's rights and child safeguarding.

So.

The political landscape. Basically it's the Tories or Labour, with smaller parties pretty much farting around inconsequentially, unless you happen to live in Scotland or Wales.

What is the difference between the Tories and Labour?

The way I see it, the Tories tend to think about economic policies more in terms of, "How will this benefit me?" whereas Labour tend to think about economic policies in terms more in terms of, "How does this benefit society?"

This means that broadly speaking the Tories support a smaller state and lower taxes, whereas Labour are more in favour of tax and spend.

In theory, at least. In reality, both parties will be either constrained or liberated according to the prevailing economic conditions, and both parties will want to offer financial incentives to the electorate if they are actually interested in getting elected or re-elected, which the Tories clearly are.

When it comes to social policies, the position is far less clear.

The Tories are still obviously taking the, "How does this benefit me?" approach. And this is absolutely crucial to our understanding of why they do what they do. Clearly, there is no economic benefit to the Rwanda policy, for example. So why do they have that policy? To appeal to the electorate. Because they think it's a vote winner. And whilst people on the political left and in the media may be hand wringing about the Rwanda policy, the reality is that there are millions of people in this country who are very upset about boat people and want to be reassured that the government is doing something about it.

Similarly, with Brexit, the Tories could have imposed restrictions on immigration from EU countries well before Brexit. They chose not to, because there was no economic benefit in doing so. It was only in the wake of the referendum result that they decided on a policy of "taking back control of our borders" because that was what voters said they wanted, and the Tories wanted, above all things, to stay in power.

Where does the Tories' approach to gender issues fit into that? To a certain extent I think people like Theresa May wanted to support something which would have no economic cost, which they didn't particularly care about either way, but which could win support from people who did not already support the Tories. The reason the Tories have ditched their self ID policy and are making noises about single sex spaces and child safeguarding is because they have figured out that this is what a majority of people, and crucially, the overwhelming majority of people who might be persuaded to vote for them, want. They have realised that the people headbanging about trans rights will never vote for them anyway so they don't need to worry about them, and have decided to appeal to the silent majority instead.

What about Labour?

Well, it's more tricky.

The first point to note is that, from where I'm standing, they seem a lot less fussed about getting elected. So their social policies are generally formed from an ideological standpoint, often based on little more than what the left wing cultural zeitgeist says is "progressive" and see no need to deviate from that because eventually people will get sick of the Tories and they'll win an election by default.

That's just about where we are now. Despite the fact that people have apparently been really sick of the Tories for a really long time, Labour is only just now pulling ahead in the polls, and it doesn't appear to have anything to do with Labour actually offering policies that a majority of people actually support. People have just had enough of the Tories.

When they get elected - and I believe it is when, not if - they will interpret this as an endorsement of their policies, not a rejection of the Tories. And they will take the view that once they're in power they're safe for five years so they can do what they like.

That's where I see the real danger with regard to Labour's stance on women's rights in particular, and to a lesser extent child safeguarding. There's been a lot of reverse ferreting since the Cass report came out, and I believe that they have now realised there is essentially no political appetite from the electorate for the medical transitioning of children.

But I don't expect there to be any movement on women's rights, because for whatever reason, Labour clearly do not consider women's rights to be important. People who, in 2022 and 2023, are willing to say things like, "A small number of women have a penis", are not going to do a U-turn and say, "You know what, of course women don't have penises, women are female people and we need to ensure that we have proper legislation in place which both recognises women as a distinct, sex-based category in law and policy, and protects their sex based rights." They're just not.

And since the Lib Dems, the Green, the SNP and Plaid Cymru are even worse than Labour in this respect, that leaves feminists without a single viable option to vote for, unless they are comfortable enough with the Tories' other policies to vote for them.

I find that wholly unacceptable.

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 11:59

Merrymouse · 23/04/2024 11:51

So yes or no?

You edited after I posted. Toilets yes. Changing rooms, depends what you mean. Yes in shops. No probably in gyms/pools. But many of them now have "changing villages" in any case.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 12:01

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 11:39

I'm not talking about you - FWR is not a hive mind. There are a lot of not-at-all-closeted right wing voters on here.

Again, not sure which posters you are talking about, but you know that women are allowed to vote for the Tories if they want to? It's not something anyone needs to be "in the closet" about, but a legitimate political choice?

Because your tone rather reminds me of the left wingers who insinuate that people like Rishi Sunak, Suella Braverman, Priti Patel, Kemi Badenoch, James Cleverly, Kwasi Kwarteng etc are some sort of race traitors for being Tories, and in particular in relation to immigration policy. There's a lot of "your parents wouldn't have even been allowed to come to the UK under your own rules", and comments along similar lines.

It's also not unrelated to the sneering we have seen about working class people who voted for Brexit and voted for Boris Johnson, lots of comments about turkeys voting for Christmas and people not understanding what they were voting for.

Implying that women, or ethnic minorities, or working class people, are somehow stupid or traitorous for being Tories or voting for the Tories or supporting Brexit, is denying that those people have the necessary intelligence or agency to think and decide for themselves.

The idea that maybe they're not voting Labour because they understand what Labour's policies are and just don't agree with them doesn't appear to have crossed the minds of Labour supporters.

Women don't belong to Labour. Ethnic minorities don't belong to Labour. Working class people don't belong to Labour. They are free to vote any way they choose.

So perhaps instead of complaining that people who ought to vote Labour aren't doing so, Labour needs to accept that no one, absolutely no one, owes their vote to Labour, and come up with some policies those people actually like.

Merrymouse · 23/04/2024 12:05

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2024 11:54

OK.

So let's go back to talking about the Tories vs Labour.

Cards on the table, so you can see where I'm coming from. I generally dislike and distrust most politicians, in general. I see them as a necessary evil, in that we need someone to run the country, democracy is the least worst way of electing a government, but generally speaking the kind of people who want to run for public office are not the best people for the job. That seems to be getting worse, not better, thanks to the social media era. Who would want to be a female MP when you can see how Rosie Duffield has been treated for stating biological facts, or how Anna Soubry was treated for her stance on Brexit? Not me.

I've never voted for the Tories or for Labour. I have leaned more towards Labour than the Tories but usually ended up voting Lib Dem because Labour can't win in my area. I have also previously voted for the Greens and the National Health Action Party.

Much like JK Rowling, my primary political focus used to be Brexit, and now it is women's rights and child safeguarding.

So.

The political landscape. Basically it's the Tories or Labour, with smaller parties pretty much farting around inconsequentially, unless you happen to live in Scotland or Wales.

What is the difference between the Tories and Labour?

The way I see it, the Tories tend to think about economic policies more in terms of, "How will this benefit me?" whereas Labour tend to think about economic policies in terms more in terms of, "How does this benefit society?"

This means that broadly speaking the Tories support a smaller state and lower taxes, whereas Labour are more in favour of tax and spend.

In theory, at least. In reality, both parties will be either constrained or liberated according to the prevailing economic conditions, and both parties will want to offer financial incentives to the electorate if they are actually interested in getting elected or re-elected, which the Tories clearly are.

When it comes to social policies, the position is far less clear.

The Tories are still obviously taking the, "How does this benefit me?" approach. And this is absolutely crucial to our understanding of why they do what they do. Clearly, there is no economic benefit to the Rwanda policy, for example. So why do they have that policy? To appeal to the electorate. Because they think it's a vote winner. And whilst people on the political left and in the media may be hand wringing about the Rwanda policy, the reality is that there are millions of people in this country who are very upset about boat people and want to be reassured that the government is doing something about it.

Similarly, with Brexit, the Tories could have imposed restrictions on immigration from EU countries well before Brexit. They chose not to, because there was no economic benefit in doing so. It was only in the wake of the referendum result that they decided on a policy of "taking back control of our borders" because that was what voters said they wanted, and the Tories wanted, above all things, to stay in power.

Where does the Tories' approach to gender issues fit into that? To a certain extent I think people like Theresa May wanted to support something which would have no economic cost, which they didn't particularly care about either way, but which could win support from people who did not already support the Tories. The reason the Tories have ditched their self ID policy and are making noises about single sex spaces and child safeguarding is because they have figured out that this is what a majority of people, and crucially, the overwhelming majority of people who might be persuaded to vote for them, want. They have realised that the people headbanging about trans rights will never vote for them anyway so they don't need to worry about them, and have decided to appeal to the silent majority instead.

What about Labour?

Well, it's more tricky.

The first point to note is that, from where I'm standing, they seem a lot less fussed about getting elected. So their social policies are generally formed from an ideological standpoint, often based on little more than what the left wing cultural zeitgeist says is "progressive" and see no need to deviate from that because eventually people will get sick of the Tories and they'll win an election by default.

That's just about where we are now. Despite the fact that people have apparently been really sick of the Tories for a really long time, Labour is only just now pulling ahead in the polls, and it doesn't appear to have anything to do with Labour actually offering policies that a majority of people actually support. People have just had enough of the Tories.

When they get elected - and I believe it is when, not if - they will interpret this as an endorsement of their policies, not a rejection of the Tories. And they will take the view that once they're in power they're safe for five years so they can do what they like.

That's where I see the real danger with regard to Labour's stance on women's rights in particular, and to a lesser extent child safeguarding. There's been a lot of reverse ferreting since the Cass report came out, and I believe that they have now realised there is essentially no political appetite from the electorate for the medical transitioning of children.

But I don't expect there to be any movement on women's rights, because for whatever reason, Labour clearly do not consider women's rights to be important. People who, in 2022 and 2023, are willing to say things like, "A small number of women have a penis", are not going to do a U-turn and say, "You know what, of course women don't have penises, women are female people and we need to ensure that we have proper legislation in place which both recognises women as a distinct, sex-based category in law and policy, and protects their sex based rights." They're just not.

And since the Lib Dems, the Green, the SNP and Plaid Cymru are even worse than Labour in this respect, that leaves feminists without a single viable option to vote for, unless they are comfortable enough with the Tories' other policies to vote for them.

I find that wholly unacceptable.

I think the Labour Party will care for the same reason that the Tories do - when you are actually in government it’s difficult to ignore rapists in women’s prisons and children’s health.

That is based on the premise that I believe that most people and most MPs believe that the government is responsible for running the country. I accept that at times that might seem overly optimistic 😆

BIossomtoes · 23/04/2024 12:05

So perhaps instead of complaining that people who ought to vote Labour aren't doing so, Labour needs to accept that no one, absolutely no one, owes their vote to Labour, and come up with some policies those people actually like.

Who’s complaining? Labour clearly has produced policies people actually like - that’s why they’re 20+ points ahead in the polls. The complaints I find ridiculous are those that go “Why won’t Labour care about what I care about?” when it’s such a minority concern that they really don’t need to.

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