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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is "openly Jewish" a hate crime under the April Fools Scottish hate crime law?

388 replies

lechiffre55 · 19/04/2024 19:59

A Metropolitan police officer threatened to arrest a man for being "Openly Jewish" in London. Is this a hate crime in Scotland under the new hate crime laws?

I think it is. Could someone report it for me please I find it incredibly offensive and racist. I want to see what happens when Scottish Police try to get involved with racist actions taken by the Metropolitan Police.

https://twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1781393179683483960

https://twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1781393179683483960

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songaboutjam · 20/04/2024 20:24

Hélène79 · 20/04/2024 17:44

Ah, so sorry @songaboutjam I missed your quotations so completely misconstrued what you were saying! Apologies!

Easily done, no worries! I should have used italics as well. I'm sorry for offending posters with sarcasm that wasn't clear enough.

For PPs or lurkers who want reassurance that these are not my opinions, I made a few earlier contributions on the thread that you can check out.
💕

(Can't delete that heart emoji for some reason)

Emotionalsupportviper · 20/04/2024 21:00

NotAllowed · 19/04/2024 21:44

Seems like a setup to manufacture sympathy

That doesn't matter.

The incident demonstrates the attitude being taken and the ineffectuality of the police to maintain the law as it stands.

I feel that the officer was in an unenviable position - he knew that if anything kicked off (and these crowds are both extremely volatile and have been emboldened because they have never been subject to any form of control) then there was no way that he or other officers could have protected Mr Falter.

It was handled badly and clumsily, but Mr falter is right. he should be able to walk down the street without being under threat of physical harm - even if he's being deliberately provocative - that shouldn't matter. He should be safe.

However demonstrators such as these haven't been properly policed since they began. The violence and the threats shouldn't have been countenanced from the very start. If there aren't enough met officers bring in the riot squad/ water cannon etc and let them sort it out. Much more peaceful demonstrations than these used to be broken up at one time. It should never have got to this stage. The anti-semitism we are seeing is horrific.

I do think the police officer was in an awful position. He tried to handle it, but whichever way he chose it wouldn't have ended well.

Mr Falter has the right to walk through the streets unaccosted - it's as simple as that.

Edited to agree with @lechiffre55

The police should have escorted the jewish man wherever he wanted to go, and arrested anyone who threatened or attempoted violence.

blackcherryconserve · 21/04/2024 00:22

IWantToRetire Jewish people can walk freely in Paris, even obvious Orthodox Jews.

lechiffre55 · 21/04/2024 13:35

blackcherryconserve · 21/04/2024 00:22

IWantToRetire Jewish people can walk freely in Paris, even obvious Orthodox Jews.

Sounds like France enforces their laws..........

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MarieDeGournay · 21/04/2024 21:53

blackcherryconserve · 21/04/2024 00:22

IWantToRetire Jewish people can walk freely in Paris, even obvious Orthodox Jews.

There's been a huge increase in antisemitic attacks in France recently, quadrupling in the space of a year. These include attacks on the street as well as in other locations.
Les actes antisémites ont presque été multipliés par quatre en un an, selon le CRIF (lemonde.fr)
This article point out that when there's a horrific attack on Jews, such as the killing of children and a teacher in a Jewish school in Toulouse in 2012, or the October 7th massacres, the incidences of antisemitic crime actually spike.

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 21/04/2024 23:31

There have been plenty of incidents in France, the shooting/hostage situation in a kosher supermarket in Paris around the time of the Bataclan springs to mind.

They might be more cautious of optics because they were occupied by the Nazis and plenty of collaboration went on. "You can't be here because you're Jewish and I can arrest you" is something the police might have said there during the war.

Hélène79 · 21/04/2024 23:32

I have French Jewish family (not Orthodox/religious) but they have been concerned about antisemitism there, especially Paris, for at least a decade now, probably more. Like PP says, there's always a massive spike on the back of violent antisemitic incidents. There's been a huge exodus of French Jews to Israel in that time specifically because of it. I always felt it wouldn't get as bad here, but I'm not sure now. So yes, in theory obvious Orthodox Jews can walk freely in Paris, but the reality is, they are absolutely not safe.

@deragod Yes I remember that, was awful.

LarkLane · 22/04/2024 00:13

I think it took real courage to appear at that march to draw attention to the fact that Jewish people are not safe. ( Have they ever felt truly safe? Sadly not.)

It's not only in London. Manchester Jews have been subjected to constant and horrific abuse, including fireworks thrown at young girls.

https://www.thejc.com/news/teenager-in-hospital-after-antisemitic-attack-in-manchester-habdr36oA Jewish teenager is being treated in hospital after he was attacked by three men in Manchester in what is believed to be an antisemitic hate crime.
The 17-year-old boy, who has not been named, was one of four people who were assaulted by three men on Saturday night. The other victims were aged 20, 18 and 18.
The victims were set upon at Bowker Vale Metrolink station, close to Heaton Park, in the heart of north Manchester's Jewish community.

https://www.thejc.com/news/teenagers-arrested-after-gun-attack-near-manchester-yeshiva-mln5s6zg
Two 17 year old boys from Broughton, Manchester, have been arrested on suspicion of possessing and discharging a firearm after an incident in the early hours of this morning when a gun was fired near the Yeshiva in Upper Park Road, Broughton.
The incident is not being treated as a hate crime or antisemitic.

(No idea why shooting a gun in the vicinity of Jews in and around the Yeshiva is not seen as a hate crime.)

Teenager in hospital after antisemitic attack in Manchester

https://www.thejc.com/news/teenager-in-hospital-after-antisemitic-attack-in-manchester-habdr36o

LadyGooGaa · 22/04/2024 07:44

In case anyone is questioning how safe it is to be Jewish today: I started a thread about being Israeli and within a short time, MN has hidden it for review. I’ve not seen some of the responses - but I can guess. I don’t think those kind of inflammatory questions and justifications for terror would be tolerated by any other minority. We live in sad and worrying times.

Emotionalsupportviper · 22/04/2024 07:50

@MarieDeGournay , @deragod

This is very disturbing.

I'm not Jewish, but I live in an area of the country which has a large Jewish population and everyone I know is shocked at the degree of anti-semitism that seems to be breaking our around the country.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 22/04/2024 08:11

I was stopped by a police officer in the area around SOAS one Saturday (attending a course) as there was a demonstration planned - he didn't threaten to arrest me, but informed me politely that a demonstration was going to begin soon and if I could, he'd suggest that I left because it would be very busy and he didn't like the idea of me being caught up in it. His internal narrative may well have been 'pain in the arse woman's going to get herself caught up in this, wish she'd just fuck off before it kicks off and we start kettling them', or any other such criticism, but the way he worded it was completely different from the outset. I could have been attending the demonstrations, but he took the position that that I wasn't.

That's the difference. One is for safety and carries respectful language, one is seeing the person as provocateur.

EdithStourton · 22/04/2024 09:07

deragod · 21/04/2024 23:16

Antisemitism in France is substantial and always was.
However, I do not know how many of you remember this https://metro.co.uk/2022/11/20/all-charges-over-convoy-who-shouted-rape-jewish-daughters-are-dropped-17793247/

So, even at your home you should not be openly Jewish as Met and CPS won't protect you.

I remember that. If such things can happen, and no one is prosecuted, it just emboldens people. What has got to happen before the CPS takes this sort of thing seriously?

lechiffre55 · 22/04/2024 09:07

I had no idea it was so bad.
The London marches seem pretty hostile, but from what's been described here it's only the tip of the iceberg :( Thank you for sharing and raising awareness. I can't imagine how afraid Jewish people must feel right now. That we are back in this place 80 years after The Holocaust is an incredible stain on the human race.

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Emotionalsupportviper · 22/04/2024 09:44

lechiffre55 · 22/04/2024 09:07

I had no idea it was so bad.
The London marches seem pretty hostile, but from what's been described here it's only the tip of the iceberg :( Thank you for sharing and raising awareness. I can't imagine how afraid Jewish people must feel right now. That we are back in this place 80 years after The Holocaust is an incredible stain on the human race.

I agree - I can't believe it.

We have had horrible evidence in the last century of what happens when anti-semitism raises its ugly head, and yet still it's allowed to go unchecked.

I also don't know where the antipathy against Jewish people comes from.

They get on with their lives, don't make demands of other faiths, work hard and support their country. British Jews are British people, in the same way that all other people born in the UK are British, and yet so many people still think that it's OK to make them a scapegoat - just why?

If anything, Jewish people are less involved in criminality than almost every other "group" (for want of a better word), and yet still they are targeted.

It's horrible, and a terrifying situation. I can only imagine how threatened many must feel, and how worried for their children.

quantumbutterfly · 22/04/2024 11:10

deragod · 21/04/2024 23:16

Antisemitism in France is substantial and always was.
However, I do not know how many of you remember this https://metro.co.uk/2022/11/20/all-charges-over-convoy-who-shouted-rape-jewish-daughters-are-dropped-17793247/

So, even at your home you should not be openly Jewish as Met and CPS won't protect you.

I do remember this and it is why many people look at the Palestinian flag as inciting racial hatred. These people are thugs and should have been prosecuted.

thatsthewayitis · 22/04/2024 12:30

The sheer irony, which rather appeals to me (being Jewish) is that all this anti-Semitism, results in normal assimilated Jews having to emigrate to Israel, thus reinforcing Zionism. It's why 90% of us support Israel because we see it's the 1930s.

Christian and Muslim hatred of Jews = Israel
It's on them not me.

lechiffre55 · 22/04/2024 16:14

@thatsthewayitis
For me as a non religious person. Could you speak to what the anti-semitism from Christians looks like please? I sort of assumed Christians would be tolerant. Is it exactly the same as other anti-semitism e.g. muslim? Or does it come in different flavours. Like if you saw some examples of anti-semitism could you make a good guess at the religions of the people saying it based on the different ways they were being anti-semitic?

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deragod · 22/04/2024 16:20

I talked a bit about that on this board already back in October. It was the time when some posters were outdoing themselves in finding more bizarre explanations for why rape is not that bad when the victim is Jewish. I was trying to be contained and to not risk outing etc., but I will try again. I overly rely on sarcasm and cynicism but hopefully...

We all know signs of traditional, religious antisemitism. There are still churches in Germany and France* decorated with imaginary of The Jewish man, your generic Chasidic, pardon but that's it, penetrating a pig. I am only 30, but even my grandparents after the war haven't heard anyone seriously believing that Jews are bad because they killed our beloved Lord Jesus. However, stereotypes that are rooted in this era are still alive. Doesn't matter protestant or catholic country the idea that Jews are cunning and powerful is still there. Of course we know there is also jealousy.

*Italy and Spain possible too, but I do not have any proofs.

Jewish communities, even secular organised around principles of Judaism, so poor Jews, while poor could count on richer members of the community - funeral funds, school scholarships, Purim is all about sharing.
However, if you live in poor conditions, work 12 hours a day, and next to you is a community that might be also poor, but somehow there are also tightness and solidarity that you cannot understand it is easy to, firstly feel envious, but than only pure resentment. And of course such divide is desired by politicians.

However, after the war antisemitism gain yet another face.
It's funny. People are so repulsed by communism, probably not many people during Cold War supported Russia, and yet they are suckers for soviet propaganda. There is already a body of literature on left wing antisemitism inspired by Soviets, but I want to talk only about the slogan - anti zionist, not antisemitic.

This slogan emerged in Poland, during political crisis of March 68.
It started as student protest after The Party censored 'Dziady' but quickly became the final of the battle within The Party which started 10 years earlier.
After Stalin died things became a bit more relaxed in Poland - culturally but also economically. However, long story short, there was a need for new ideological explanation for communist regime in Poland, and people who won had no ethical problem with using a trick they learnt in Moscow - blame the Jews. So, yes, Jewish communists were in loosing faction of The Party, Jewish intellectuals were too engaged in organising democratic opposition. Fifth element, you had to choose if you are Polish (and patriotic, thus you wanted communist rule) or you are Jewish and cunning and you care only about yourself. Then you had to go to Israel, with nothing and without Polish citizenship. Zionist to Israel, writers to pens, students to books, workers to work. That's how you deal with unrest. This, and beatings of students and workers at the streets. Moscow to this day has The Jew as useful tool. I have heard anecdotes, told with typical jewish humor, but to this day when something goes wrong in Russia you now who is responsible.

I linked this picture before. In the picture, a father, who lost all his family in Holocaust, (a mother has similar story) cries and hugs his son for the last time in their life. That is antizionism in full light.

It the end it was not the last time, however it never heals. They were not religious, they never taught their sons a thing about Judaism, not a word of jidisz. They wanted to stay in Poland after the war, they wanted their children to grow up in Poland.

Every one who says they are not antiemetic but antizionist is aware what that means.

(Sorry, that's ranty)

Edit: sorry, I was typing for so long that now it looks even more random.

Dziady (poem) - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dziady_(poem)

LadyGooGaa · 22/04/2024 16:35

thatsthewayitis · 22/04/2024 12:30

The sheer irony, which rather appeals to me (being Jewish) is that all this anti-Semitism, results in normal assimilated Jews having to emigrate to Israel, thus reinforcing Zionism. It's why 90% of us support Israel because we see it's the 1930s.

Christian and Muslim hatred of Jews = Israel
It's on them not me.

Exactly

MarieDeGournay · 22/04/2024 16:37

Ummm... I'm no expert, but isn't the history of Israel a bit longer than the sum of Christian and Muslim Jew-hating??

CantDealwithChristmas · 22/04/2024 16:45

My feeling is that anti-semitism is a centuries old and very deep rooted prejudice. It's threaded through English history from the pogroms and Expulsion under Edward I right up until the present day. Arguably anti-Semitism is a far stronger and older prejudice than any other form of racism.

It got given new life in the twentieth century through Marxism. For Marx, Jewish people were the folks that controlled global capital. These ideas were adopted by Hitler and he melded them with the Teutonic/Aryan forms of antisemitism that the proto-Nazi German nationalists of the late nineteenth century espoused.

There are many forms of antisemitism - Christian, Muslim, Marxist, facist, communist. What we have today in the West is an unholy amalgam of primarily the Islamic and Marxist forms of AS.

I also think that the 'moratorium' of AS in the decades post WW2 was an aberration of sorts caused by the sheer horror of learning the truth about the Holocaust. The generations for whom this horror was fresh have now died away and a not insignificant proportion of Gen Z either know nothing about the Holocaust or believe it was fake/exeggerated.

we have lost our sense of history and so the poison of AS has returned.

It is intensely sad and depressing and I think the only way forward would be for AS to be warned against in schools in the way that anti-Black racism or Islamophobia are warned against. Not sure it'll happen tho.

fungipie · 22/04/2024 16:53

SgtOliviaBenson · 20/04/2024 03:16

Would it be a setup to manufacture sympathy if the man was "openly Muslim "? Or does that only apply to Jews?

Well if a man wearing Arabic/Palestinian dress turned up at a pro Israel rally- I am sure it would apply 1000x more.

What was the man doing there? By chance, or just provocation? And I have seen later interviews with him, and he does not wear the kippa? Why?

As for the situation in France, yes, Jewish signs like the kippa are generally accepted , whereas any sign of Muslim dress is absolutely and totally disallowed. Why?

MarieDeGournay · 22/04/2024 17:00

In France, the kippa/yarmulke is banned in public schools in the same way as, for instance, the hijab by the "Loi no 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics".

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