Debate happening in House of Commons: Victoria Atkins on fire

[BonfireLady]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/15/rishi-sunak-david-cameron-downing-street-general-election/

The problem with that position is that it completely ignores the impact on all other groups.

We don't reorganise society around any other condition. So why gender dysphoria?

Also regarding the legal argument, whilst you are technically right, the law is bullshit. If law - or identity - is not the same as biology, you need to actually use different words to distinguish between these different concepts, otherwise you lose the ability to talk clearly about biology when you need to. Which is actually more often than normal people need to talk about gender identity or gender recognition certificates.

I'd be interested to see examples of where trans activist women have suffered rape or death threats, and who is making them. Can you link to some?

Dodd's Odd Nods were brilliant to watch. They got faster when she was confident she was bobbing along to the right side of history, and then tailed off, to be balanced out by a concerned frown, when she wasn't quite sure about whether what Streeting was saying was The Done Thing.

The problem with that position is that it completely ignores the impact on all other groups.

Yes and fortunately we’re hearing more about that now

We don't reorganise society around any other condition. So why gender dysphoria?

It’s a fundamental error mostly due to the first point - ignoring impact on other groups

redredreds · Today 10:10

when they say the debate is toxic on both sides, what they neglect to mention is: the so called toxic other side, the GC feminists, are vocal and strident in their views because you don't make change by asking nicely and making concessions. GC members of parliament and the public at large had to be vocal and critical and in a very forthright way, to shake the establishment.

I wouldn't say strident, more steadfast and digging their heels in. I also don't agree that being forthright, sometimes rude and sticking to one's guns is toxic. (Ie GC women). None of them have told someone to die in a grease fire, or posted photos of themselves in fetish gear, with weapons and threatened the other lot with dire violence.

I think it's a cop out to say that there's toxicity on both sides. I understand that Hilary Cass had to appear even handed, to avoid accusations of bias, (hah!) but as more people become aware of the reality, the easier it will be to point out the one-sidedness of the abuse.

When I first took an interest in the subject, I was pointed to terfisaslur.com and my goodness, it was glaringly evident, in comparison to articles and blogs by GC feminists.

dodd's odd nods sounds like an 80s band

Apparently there are lots of good women on the Central Candidates list who are not getting selected by constituencies. Instead Constituencies are oping for older, local, white men who have served their time as Councillors

Thars really interesting and sounds depressingly true.
I have always been baffled that being a city councillor is an unpaid position, especially given how it feeds into central government. I would stand for council if I could do it as an actual job, but I couldn’t do it in top of my existing job/ responsibilities.
So, councillors tend to be retired, or very young with no kids. It really narrows the field.

I think it's a cop out to say that there's toxicity on both sides.

I agree and I think it's being used as a deflection technique by those who still hate women querying this.

It is not toxic to question safeguarding and anyone framing as such as anti safeguarding

I thought ‘Dodd’s Odd Nods’ sounded more like a stand at a village fete. Perhaps you could purchase some approving nods there?

Absolutely it’s used often to attack women who say no or raise safeguarding

I also recall it being used when the 70 year old woman was punched in the face

I actually loathe the misogyny of it

Was reading this and think you may be onto something in terms of why, Starmer and others feel TWAW as a matter of law or principle.

For me though, as both a legal and semantic pendant, with a side-helping of autistic obstinacy, I can’t reach the position that ‘TW with a GC AW’.

I find I would define it as “‘TW with a GC are legally recognised AW in a few, very specific circumstances’ and the recognition of this cannot be extrapolated to any self-identifying person within the trans community who does not hold a GRC”. But as you’ve gathered from my posts, brevity and succinctness are not my strong point 🤣 [that’s my autism too… slopes off]

Post Blair Councillors now get allowances. Not great (circa £13kpa if you don't have executive responsibilities) but useful if you are retired or on benefits.

Local Ward Associations tend to be very male dominated. I assume this is true for other parties as it is for the Conservatives. Gone are the days when the middle class housewife might take up politics as a part time unpaid occupation to do her bit for the community. Throw in a bit of manoeuvring it there is a chance the constituency nomination might become vacant and it is not an easy environment.

Party head offices are presumably getting good candidates coming forward willing first to fight a no-hope seat and then try for something safer. But there is increasing resistance out in the shires to candidates imposed by "London". So far the Tories have done well in terms of getting good women and ethnic minorities elected. This may be coming to an end.

The Labour angle would be interesting. Many constituencies used to be dominated by Militant, which made the Westminster Party pretty ungovernable/unelectable.

I know of a teen who transitioned probably 5 or 6 years ago. Their family was very upset and confused and felt like their history had been somehow rewritten. The teen would likely have been classed as vulnerable for other reasons, and a lot of the backstory of how they felt a different gender from a very young age was absolutely not how their parents and siblings remembered.

Absolutely it’s used often to attack women who say no or raise safeguarding

I also recall it being used when the 70 year old woman was punched in the face

I actually loathe the misogyny of it

And there are a lot of MPs, particularly women, who have been using it since yesterday.

It's just plain bad law.

It's like, imagine the words "chalk" and "cheese". And you pass a law saying that if chalk has a special piece of paper it is now legally considered cheese, and vice versa.

And because a small amount of chalk is now considered cheese, you no longer have a word which just means cheese, which makes it difficult to just talk about cheese.

So you no longer have a word meaning "just cheese", you only have a word meaning "most cheese and some chalk".

But when the fuck do you ever need a word meaning "most cheese and some chalk", unless you are one of the people who wanted some chalk to be considered cheese for reasons best known to yourself? The rest of us have no need for such a word. It is a completely nonsensical grouping. The only categories which include both chalk and cheese are words such as "things" or "solid matter".

WarriorN · Today 14:03

And there are a lot of MPs, particularly women, who have been using it since yesterday.

It makes your head spin, doesn't it? Do you think they may be suffering from something akin to Stockholm Syndrome?

I love this analogy.

yes, I agree. It's toxic on one side and that's the TRA side.

Well I agree. The law is bullshit. Unfortunately noones proposing repealing it, so we are a bit stuck.

OT but the actual story about Stockholm Syndrome is not how it's usually portrayed.

"Few realize that ‘Stockholm Syndrome’ is a term that was foisted on a woman by a male psychiatrist who had never met her after a Swedish bank heist worthy of a movie. Fifty years after the hostage situation that gave the syndrome its name, Sheila Flynn reports on how minds have changed — and how police may have avoided criticism by pathologizing a victim"

Mr Wade believes that Stockholm Syndrome is rooted in institutionalized attitudes and inequalities that have persisted for centuries.
“These practices of implanting pathologies in the minds, brains and bodies of oppressed people, they’re inherent to what we might call colonialism, patriatchy,[sic] different forms of racism, different forms of violence and oppression,” he says. “So this is not sort of an accidental or uncommon problematic way of thinking; rather, it is endemic.”
And he adds, concerningly, that he believes “it’s larger-scale now than it ever has been.”

https://archive.is/lon1B

It's not a cop-out; it's an outright lie. A false equivalence.

They are framing whistleblowing and asking questions as equivalent to rape and death threats.

Women have: had meetings, discussions, written letters, made petitions, written articles and books.

TRAs have: set off smoke bombs, made death and rape threats, surrounded a building full of women having a meeting and banged on the windows, assaulted women, had women arrested, sacked women, insulted, smeared, and mocked women.

Intimidation and aggressive attempts to stop women from speaking have characterised the movement right back from the days of 'no debate' and 'get over it'.

It's absurd and outright nonsense to say the two sides are equivalent.

Yes I think that's where I am too. And Starmer 😂

It is a problem that it can't be expressed succinctly!

“noones proposing repealing it”.

I am.

I think we need to focus on repealing the GRA. It’s been on the go for 20 years too long and it’s high time it was repealed. It’s a bad law made by devious activists against the wishes of the public.

Lots of people are proposing repealing it. We need some politicians on board.

Do you think they may be suffering from something akin to Stockholm Syndrome?

I think there is some sort of psychological thing that does this, yes.

Too right, FlakyPoet.

All of this, every bit, goes back to the GRA2004. The idea that a man can change into a woman and there can be a non-bio form of sex. Everything is built on that.
If people can't acquire a certificated sex, all the issues with single-sex spaces and the erasure of women as a class and our language go away. And nobody lies to children to ease their pain. The GRA has to go for women's rights and child safeguarding to exist.

I just watched the full length version of the video in the HOC on youtube. Victoria was magnificent. Her body language and facial expressions were priceless. The way she managed to subtly bristle with anger and withering contempt when addressing certain members on the opposition benches while remaining calm, composed, polite and professional but incisive and assertive throughout the entire thing was an absolute masterclass.