Debate happening in House of Commons: Victoria Atkins on fire

[BonfireLady]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/15/rishi-sunak-david-cameron-downing-street-general-election/

You are lucky midge that your child has an issue they can "grow out of"

My youngest has been on CAMHS waiting list for 3 years for something he won't grow out of (an "urgent" referral apparently) and not been seen because he's not actively suicidal. Meanwhile I have paid for private help, which I was lucky to be able to do, but even that hasn't helped with a lot of the support he needs. Because the capacity just doesn't exist to deal with the volume of children needing help, nhs or private.

So many parents are in the same boat as me, whether for gender, MH issues, ND support, school refusal. It's a disgrace.

Labour were right to raise it IMO as until the waiting list situation is resolved anything the Conservatives put in place will be unworkable.

@AdamRyan
I think its entirely possible that a gay, HIV positive man would have such a different life experience to me he'd have a very different world view, but equally believe in it. And I think possibly he dislikes Miriam Cates because of her association with a church that has engaged in those practices, rather than because of her views on the T.
He's not an MP in the HOC to simply follow his own views. He needs to consider the impact on people not like him, as we all do

Hear, hear!

The NAS were well-placed to step in, to advocate, and to query the rise in female autistic teens with ROGD (it always is rapid onset, despite how they are groomed to rewrite their life stories). They should have been funding studies and pressing the government and NHSE to investigate and provide services. Instead they signed up with Mermaids.

the first place I was sent when the ROGD emerged and the autism diagnosis happened was the NAS. The first webpage I came across was their (now removed) page on gender identity with articles and links to Mermaids.

I exited and never engaged again - much to the frustration of CAMHS who felt that rather than chasing them for appointments, I should have been going to positive parenting classes run by the NAS. Parents of ASD kids have been poorly served by a captured support service that we’ve had to avoid, with nothing else as backup.

Not sure if this has been posted already but Victoria Smith has tweeted that she’s upset by the both-sidesing regarding the “toxicity”. She linked to this article:

https://thecritic.co.uk/trust-and-the-terf-wars/

This. Mothers add enormous value to the nation: they literally create new citizens with their own bodies. Whilst motherhood is by no means the only way that women can add value to the nation, it is a critical value-add and only women can provide it.

Mental health provision for children and adults alike has been underfunded for decades and the rapid uptake of gender ideology is IMO one of the consequences of this. Unhappy people will try anything to become happier.

That they noticed the link between autism and gender-related distress and didn't demand research into why is shocking. NAS have let autistic women and girls down in a big way.

This is IT!!
Thank you so much for sharing this piece.

I wrote a post on here a way back, trying to articulate this- about no-one recognising the re-traumatising effect of what was happening on women who have lived with these dynamics before.

And as other recent posters have pointed out- the pronounced mental health impacts even on those who have never been subject to them previously.

I could never articulate this as well as VS has here.
I don't know if this aspect will ever be properly acknowledged😔

@BusyMummy001 @NoWordForFluffy
Totally agree about the NAS. It used to be a good organisation but has gone downhill so much. I was a member of their Council for some years, around 25 years ago. It was obvious that the governing body was slowly being taken over by autistic men. I remember joking with one of them that we'd need an autistic woman soon because the stats then were 5:1 M/F with ASD and we already had four on the Council (straight over his head!). There's also been a total take over by the "high functioning" sector. This is why I can't stand Chris Packham on ASD, stick to wildlife mate, you can't talk for my DS or anyone else for that matter, it's part of your condition

I've said it before, but it has struck me before in the relatively short time I've been posting here, quite simply how MN is a force for good in the world. And you can't say that about much of SM.

Victoria Atkins was magnificent. I always think ( as a lifelong Labour voter) it’s such a damn shame that Tory women politicians are generally better than Labour women. Labour women always seem so mimsy and ineffective. I looked up VA s voting record and it’s pretty much representative of the opposite of everything I believe in, but on this issue she took no prisoners. Same with Kemi Badenoch. Why can’t Labour get some women with that sort of presence and power?!

OMG.

This part:

In her 2020 blogpost “Harry Potter and the Reverse Voltaire”, the philosopher Mary Leng described a scenario with which many “TERFs” are familiar. People know that what you are arguing is not incorrect, but they believe you must never articulate it out loud: “I agree completely with what you say, but I’ll fight to the death to prevent you from saying it.” If you do continue to speak, this shows that you are wilfully cruel and deserve all the pushback you receive.

I have been looking for a way to articulate what happened to me recently during a conversation with a friend, which preceded me being kicked out of a WhatsApp group for saying I don't agree that JKR is a Nazi, and this is it.

I don't believe even one of those women believes that a trans woman is a woman - I don't believe anyone believes it - but we must not say so because it's too unkind.

Even if not saying so means we are unable to object to things which are even more unkind, such as vulnerable women being imprisoned with Karen White.

Yes I’ve noticed all the energy is spent on preventing the conversation at all

That's because they know that TWANW and none of their arguments stand up to even the smallest scrutiny.

How can you defend a point of view you don't even really believe in?

The NAS use a transwoman round these parts to spread their word.

Why can’t Labour get some women with that sort of presence and power?!

They get edited out at the candidate selection stage?

I watched the debate last night, and although HoC debates are not always the biggest news stories in the world, I couldn't believe the lack of BBC coverage. For one thing, it's not every day that you get a debate where the Govt lambasts the Opposition for their policies and behaviour, and the Opposition basically respond with, "Yeah, fair cop, guv, we got it wrong". That doesn't happen every day of the week! It's discomfiting being the wrong side of the argument. As so many who went along with farrago are now doubtless beginning to find out.

And wasn't Dodds' face behind Streeting a picture? She looked like she'd like to be somewhere else. A funeral. maybe? 😄

@NoWordForFluffy sorry, I don't understand what you're saying?

I mean, at risk of being on a hamster wheel I think vanishingly few people believe TWAW.I think RLM is a true "TWAW" believer but that's easier for him as a gay man. I've noticed lots of gay men appear repulsed by vaginas so probably quite happy not to think about them/see them as irrelevant.

I think the debate for many people is actually:

1. does gender dysphoria exist as a condition and
2. is allowing people legal recognition as the opposite sex a valid approach to treating it?

If someone answers yes to both those questions they would take a similar position to TWAW in a debate. I think that's where Rayner, Creasy and Nandy are.

There's also the legal pedants (like me) who point out that under current law TW with a GRC AW. Law is not the same as biology obviously. Starmer and Thornberry are legal pedants imo.

We cannot just demand everyone thinks like us, that's as bad as the TRAs. There has to be a way to recognise all perspectives, otherwise the debate will just continue to be toxified.

I know people focus on the TRAs but actually a fair few women in the debate have suffered rape threats on twitter etc for being pro-Trans and that is not OK either. It's also not OK to call people groomers and child abusers just because you disagree with them and I see that on twitter all the time too.

I am told that the Conservatives are starting to have similar problems with candidate quality and selection.

Sharply falling membership means that very few in a constituency will be able to vote for a MP candidate and this group tend to be white, male and aging.

Apparently there are lots of good women on the Central Candidates list who are not getting selected by constituencies. Instead Constituencies are oping for older, local, white men who have served their time as Councillors.

I assume something similar is happening in Labour as engagement in politics drops and local parties move to the right or left of the centre.

That it's being taken over by autistic men. They don't even use actual women to discuss being autistic. They use an autistic transwoman. I was agreeing they were being taken over by men.

I would not want to be a woman in a role with a high public profile at the moment. It's horrendous how women are treated.

E.g.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/heidi-allen-received-abusive-email-accusing-her-of-killing-a-baby-after-she-had-an-abortion-a4274096.html

For one thing, it's not every day that you get a debate where the Govt lambasts the Opposition for their policies and behaviour, and the Opposition basically respond with, "Yeah, fair cop, guv, we got it wrong". That doesn't happen every day of the week!

Yes! The lack of comment is utterly bizarre!

@NoWordForFluffy I understand what you're saying. My brain is disengaged this morning! Dealing with admin (wife work!) and following this thread