MN promoting cervical screening. Guess which word is missing

[HermioneWeasley]

It’s being promoted on MN, later on they say you’ll usually have a female nurse do it, but it’s all about PEOPLE

https://www.mumsnet.com/articles/cervical-screening

@MNHQ why are you colluding with this woman erasing nonsense?

@Lampy123678
Are you saying when you see the word people you read men?
"People" means women and men, as you know. Men are not the target, no man has a cervix, so why include them in the messaging? It blurs the message that this is sex-specific healthcare.

No woman/girl of cervical screening programme age will not know she is a woman. Even if she has a DSD, she will know she is female.
Every woman who claims to be a man, or to be neither a man nor a woman, knows she is actually a woman. Of all women, they are the most likely to know that they have a cervix.

Of course this healthcare is unique to women. If they want to add something like - this information applies to non-binary females and transmen, fine. But you can't pretend that those women are not women, in a healthcare setting. It's dangerous to encourage the delusion and harms women generally to talk as if having a cervix is just some random physical feature.

But ultimately as I said before, calling women "people with a cervix" has got nothing to do with reaching women with special identities. If it was, there would routinely be equivalent language in testicular and prostate cancer awareness campaigns to refer to men who claim to be women.

Well firstly, no. People doesn't mean Women and men. Do you not consider children people? 🤨
If they want to add something like - this information applies to non-binary females and transmen, fine.

It's not 'information that applies' though. They're referring to people who are eligible i.e. "women and people with a cervix are eligible for cervical screening". They're saying women, non binary females and transmen are eligible, and they're encompassing all of those categories (who don't fall under women) into "people with a cervix". Not the women. I'm really unclear why that's confusing for you.
There is no NHS testicular or prostate screening programme. If there were, the same screening guidelines would apply i.e. referring to men and people with a prostate etc.

Are children not people to you?

Except it's not, as I mentioned above if you are not registered as a woman with you gp (as is someone's right) and need cervical screening it makes it very sensible to have the literature also refer to people with a cervix, so people aren't turned away from screening. All they have to do if let the HCP know they have a cervix and they will be screened, AND treated and referred to in a way that makes them feel dignified and respected. Every woman registered with the GO practice will be called for screening, and referred to as a woman and also treated with respect and dignity. Why do you have an issue with that?

Are children not people to you?

Don’t be silly.

Sometimes I wonder if they’re even human, TBH.

People doesn't mean Women and men. Do you not consider children people?
Children are not being offered cervical smears.

The reason I said "something like" is that I wasn't prescribing exact wording.
Female nonbinaries and women who claim to be men are women. Obviously.

I wasn't talking specifically about the NHS for testicular and prostate cancer awareness campaigns. Charities often do them.
Although I notice that NHS England refers to men and male sex organs. The NHS Scotland website does refer to "people with testicles", which is new, and evens things up a bit, but is also stupid. Only men have testicles. As with a cervix, testicles are not a randomly occurring physical feature.

But to come back to the advert at the top of this thread which the OP referred to - the point is that it refers to "people" coming forward for a screening, "3 out of 10 people" missing out. The word is not "people", it's "women".

Female nonbinaries and women who claim to be menarewomen. Obviously.
I'm sorry but as a HCP I disagree. You may think that, but it's really not your business what people are referred to when they're the patient. As long as You get called a woman when you're the patient. I really don't think people should be rolling their eyes at people's identities when they're receiving care, I think they should be referred to however they feel is respectful whatever you may think of it elsewhere.

No, I didn't say they were having smears. But they're people. People doesn't mean women and men, it means human beings and then is usually followed with extra descriptive information I.e "people with a cervix over 25". Your suggestion to list all the other people is so wordy, it makes sense they would lump them all in as "people"..If the article is talking about who came forward for screening, they can use the word people to refer to everyone (women AND people.with a cervix, because women are still people..) if they wanted.to be less wordy. Why they wouldn't list women separately on Mumsnet of all places, I don't know. Probably to get attention for cervical screening awareness by people posting threads annoyed by it 🤷🏻‍♀️

People doesn't mean women and men, it means human beings and then is usually followed with extra descriptive information I.e "people with a cervix over 25".
"People" includes men, women and children of both sexes. Only women are the target of this.
I've explained to you what my issue is with the phrase "people with a cervix" - sex denialism is not something healthcare charities or the NHS should be into.

they can use the word people to refer to everyone (women AND people.with a cervix, because women are still people..)
The trouble with that is that it sounds as if women aren't people.
And they don't want to refer to everyone, they want to refer to women, including those who claim special identities.

Why they wouldn't list women separately on Mumsnet of all places, I don't know.
They don't mention women at all - unless there is an extra bit which doesn't show on the screen grab. That was the original point.

We're going in circles. You said yourself transmen and non binary females are eligible for screening. They have to be referenced somewhere for their benefit AND for the benefiting of places offering screening so they aren't turned away. They should not be obligated to identify as a woman in order to receive life saving screening, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks about concept of trans people being real or not. They aren't wrong to just say people because they are referring to people who were screened, but it was unwise or, as I said, a clever tactic to get cervical screening trending in topics.

@Lampy123678 And as i said earlier, I would be happy with "nonbinary females and transmen" as an inclusive term - but you were the one who said "people with a cervix"/"people with a cervix over 25" was better or as good. At least with the form of words I proposed we would be talking to women in terms they recognise and accept for themselves as opposed to pretending that cervixes have nothing to do with sex.

Edited to tag in Lampy

I think you're forgetting that leaflets need to be written in the most concise way whilst being accurate. I'm assuming those two categories will be how others may define themselves but I can't know for sure (can you?) so it is the most sensible and grammatically correct thing to say "people with a cervix" to cover everyone else who is eligible for cervical smears because that's what's qualifying them for eligibility - they're a person with a cervix.

@Lampy123678

So what if nonbinary females and transmen is a bit longer? A few characters here and there make no difference.

Women and people with a cervix = women plus random men who happen to have a cervix. No men have cervixes. Plus it's not inconceivable that some of the women who don't want to be called women might think that testosterone has magically changed their sex organs. I'm not being facetious, by the way. There is a lot of wishful thinking and misinformation on the internet.

"Person with a cervix" is offensive to many women.
A form of words like nonbinary females and transmen are eligible is not offensive to the cohort you are trying to include (or to women in general) and speaks to them directly. If you are championing the use of "person with a cervix" instead of "nonbinary females and transmen", it must be at least partly because you want to divorce sexual organs from sex, and women from our female sexual functions - and it's not to do with a desire to disseminate information as widely as possible. That's politics, not healthcare.

I think we have exhausted this argument. A tiny minority of women wish to deny their sex for various reasons. As individuals, one-to-one, they can be dealt with compassionately and sensitively by any HCP they need to see. These women cannot ignore their sex at such times. For their own safety and health, it's important that they understand that they are female - women - even if they don't want to face it.

Edited because I forgot to tag you in again.

@Lampy123678
No, nonbinary females and transmen does not cover all 100 or so genders. Neither does "people". What about cats with a cervix? Or fae with a cervix? They claim not to be people, surely. So they wouldn't be included as "people with a cervix", would they?

You're reaching for a point now aren't you? 🥴
No cats aren't people. You also can't register at your GP as a cat so great example 🙃
Anyway!
If you're human and have a cervix, you qualify for cervical screening.

@Lampy123678

You're reaching for a point now aren't you?
You started it, claiming that there were other genders not covered by my formulation, so I pointed out that yours wasn't comprehensive, either.

No cats aren't people.
Cats (and fae) aren't people, correct. Women aren't men, either. No-one can turn into a cat, and no-one can change sex.

You also can't register at your GP as a cat so great example
Luckily we haven't gone that crazy yet. But it's almost as daft to register at the GP as the wrong sex, as it would be to register as an animal or a fae, if that was allowed. You can't say "this impossible thing is fine to register as, but this other impossible thing isn't".
It's also potentially dangerous to register as the wrong sex. Knowledge of your actual sex is essential for proper healthcare. Giving a woman treatment according to male standards and protocols can have serious consequences for the woman.
You are relying on the fact that everybody knows what sex she is really, which is dishonest of you.

If you're human and have a cervix, you qualify for cervical screening.
If you are human and have a cervix, you are a woman. Saying "woman" is nice ad short so I would expect you to be keen on it for that reason. Men are not eligible for a cervical smear because they do not have a cervix. Only women do, because the cervix is a female reproductive organ.

So India Willoughby should be screened then? They are a human with a cervix apparently. They have offered to show it on national TV.
They believe they have one.

If India shouldn't go for a cervical smear test, why not? Is there something different about India than other women who might go for a cervical exam?

No, you just keep insisting that "people" isn't sufficient to cover everyone else even when your comments confirm...it is 😂

It has been proved that accurate language results in greater take up and hence a lower number of deaths. This language that obfuscates the cohort needing to get a smear test will result in more deaths. I am sorry that in the name of 'inclusivity' you feel that is an acceptable outcome.

How will my child know if they have to have a smear? How does my child know if they have a cervix?

Children don't have smears hence why the eligible criteria is over 25.
If you're registered as female at your GP you will be automatically assumed to have a cervix and unless ceased from the programme will be called when an eligible age. People not registered as female at their GP won't be automatically invited but are eligible for screening if they have a cervix and just need to inform their practice of this as the reason for booking a smear.
I'm not sure how that's confusing?

So there's no way to know whether my child has a cervix. Okay.

It's a screening programme - The majority of eligible people are automatically called for recall. You're correct that accurate language which identifies additional people for screening who aren't automatically called and gets more people screened has increased uptake in screening - which is amazing! Not sure that's the point you were trying to make though.

100%? No, there isn't actually. Even for those registered with their GP as female. They'd be called for screening automatically assuming they do have one and it's possible to find out at that point that they don't have a cervix, or they have two! We see all sorts.

Again not sure why this is confusing to you? There's been no feedback that this has been confusing to the people it applies to, and it's not really your concern if they have know to attend screening. Presumably you know if you need it?

A very high percentage of women, particularly those with English as a second languague, don't know what a cervix is. So they don't know that they are people with a cervix. Right there is your problem. That is the point I am making. By saying women you will get a higher take up and less people (women!) will die. Surely that is a priority?

Yes and we target those with ESL or even those with no English with their own targeted campaigns in their languages and outreach programmes in their communities.
Also, please don't assume people with ESL are ignorant, the majority knowledge what a cervix is even in English and if they have one. I've had many a patient explain to me in broken English that they have been called for a smear and that actually their cervix was removed or partially removed in their old country etc.
Once again, if they're registered with their GP they'll be automatically called on most cases.

If people were recorded correctly on NHS systems then people would be called correctly. Allowing people to have their sex changed on patient records is asking for trouble. Keep sex as biological sex and use the gender box for anyone that feels they have a gender. That way women who want to be called men will still get called for screening rather than having to advertise and hope they see it.

If they want to change their title to Mr so the letter is addressed to Mr X then fine, that's not a problem but they absolutely must be listed as female to avoid potential dangerous emergency treatments if medics use male markers for comparison or drug levels. There was a woman who insisted she was a man and therefore her ectopic pregnancy was missed.