SelfID law passed in German parliament.

[Brefugee]

It's done.
636 votes
373 yea
251 nay
11 abstentions

Am going to assume that there will now be a long legal challenge. I want to scream.

Bollix

So that's Canada, Spain, Malta, Ireland, Germany where the word woman is meaningless.

Anywhere else?

A couple of South American countries as well - Brazil and Argentina...I think.

Belgium too?

Isn't this good news? All those on Reddit bemoaning the situation in the UK and threatening to leave the country now have another safe haven to choose from.

If they have UK passports they'll need visas.

Unless they can claim asylum in Germany and I don't rate their chances of success too highly. Though I'd love to see one of them try.

Is there similar movements of worry that there is here in self ID countries?

Or is it true we’re on. TERF island?

there was a demo outside German parliament today and online, at least, there is a lot of worry, and a lot of sharing info from TERF accounts in English. The Cass report has been widely shared etc

We will see what happens now. There's an election next year so there is time for some terfery to highlight issues.

Crazy that you could face a €10,000 fine for “misgendering”. What an absolute nightmare.

I read something recently explaining the craziness of what was being proposed but of course can’t find it now. Anybody got a link to a post / article? Thanks

Germany, of all places (with its Nazi and Stasi past), making it illegal to speak the truth. SMH.

You'll laugh but I've heard of at least one case of an American actually trying that one on. Gutted I'll probably never learn the outcome - it was in the local.paper, but only as part of a feature story on the local "queer" community.

I notice Germany now approves letting 14 year olds 'change sex'. Obviously nobody there heard of Cass. Nor of WARPATH. Nor of other countries which have U turned.

As of February 2023, gender self-identification, where no judge or medical expert are involved, is part of the law in 20 countries: Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland and Uruguay

From wiki

Germany has hated women for a while now. With legalised prostitution and now this, I’m pretty sure it’s a haven for misogyny. You would think they would have learned a thing or two in the last 80 years.

It's worse than that. No parental consent necessary from 14. "Sex change" possible essentially from birth, pace social services' involvement. From age 5 the agreement of the child itself is also required.

Re the Germans allowing 14 year olds with no medical assessment to simply register themselves as having changed sex: It is, in a horrible way, all of a piece with the mentality which made Germans set the age of 14 as the age of sexual consent.

Wtf have they lost all senses?

I wonder how many people actually know this was voted on today? Listen to German Radio (SWR1 BW) while at work, all day they talked about the new law for family names, zilch about the "Selbstbestimmungsgesetz".
Same for the Spiegel, nothing to see.
I only found out because I follow someone on Twix who was posting about it all week long.

But now we cannot call the likes of a certain German MP a male without being fined.
And those fines could, theoretically, apply to anyone, regardless of age.

Just checked, the MP I voted for at the last election voted against, the one where I am moving to voted yes.
And another MP for my home constituency voted for it as well. That does not surprise me as she only seems to vote for popularity.

"The ‘Self ID Shit’ just hit the fan in Germany - big time.

It could be the most bonkers Self ID law ever passed:

• Parents can choose a child’s sex, including ‘non-binary’
• Child can confirm their sex from the age of 5
• You can change sex as often as you like (with a 12-month wait in between)
• ‘Misgendering’ can get you a fine of €10000

I need to read up more on it, but it sounds proper crazy / verrückt.

A very bad day for women and girls and homosexuals.

Germany already has a ‘conversion therapy ban’ in place so this consolidates its position as a dystopian ‘trans’ paradise"

https://twitter.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1778791434469937333?s=19

It is completely crazy, there will be parents who will determine their child to be "non-binary" from birth, others who will celebrate their child being "trans" purely because it plays with the "wrong" toys.

And a five year old confirming their sex, well, my nephew just did that last week. "I cannot go into the girl's loo to wash my hands. I'm a boy, what if anyone sees???"
It would not surprise me if the €10K fine only applies to any one over the age of 14, which is the age of criminal responsibility. But then what would stop a beligerent teenager to call their transitioned parent by their previous "Mama" or "Papa"?

They have opened Pandora's box today.

Sorry, another post from me and slightly picking up on what I said in my first post:

As a Germany, listening to German radio and reading German news I find it extremely sad and concerning that this is not more widely reported on in Germany.
It is almost as if they feared a backlash if made public?

On the German parenting site where I used to post and still occasionally read there is some sort of discussion about trans issues every now and then but the quality of discussion is dire. I think one or two posters are reading MN and are very well informed but the rest is pretty clueless. It's not helped by the fact that many/most of them don't follow news in English and get all their information about what's going on from German news sites.

I did find something on Tagesschau but there wasn’t a huge amount of information.

What I don’t understand is what rights women have to single sex spaces in Germany, and how these will be impacted. I’ve seen a couple of reports saying that organisations can choose to provide single sex services and this will not be affected by this change. So is there a fear that self ID will lead to a cultural change which will in turn lead to a decline in single sex provision, rather than the fact that self-ID will have a direct impact on women’s rights in law? Or is there more to it?

I’ve also seen that it’s not misgendering or deadnaming that will be financially penalised, but “malicious outing”, but I don’t see how these can be distinguished unless the latter contains an element of harassment. But in most cases it is very obvious what sex someone is, so the whole concept of outing is meaningless unless it means not pretending that you think a man is a woman, or vice versa. How is it supposed to work?

Those laws in relation to young children are enabling abuse.