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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SelfID law passed in German parliament.

167 replies

Brefugee · 12/04/2024 15:03

It's done.
636 votes
373 yea
251 nay
11 abstentions

Am going to assume that there will now be a long legal challenge. I want to scream.

OP posts:
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GrumpyPanda · 16/04/2024 18:54

There's now a petition asking the Bavarian state government to file a constitutional challenged. Numerous arguments but one of them is patents might be tempted to trans their daughters in order to evade criminal sanctions on female genital mutilation (male circumcision being permitted.)

https://citizengo.org/de/pt/12935-Nein-zum-Selbstbestimmungsgesetz--Schalten-Sie-das-Verfassungsgericht-ein-?utm_medium=shared&utm_campaign=typage&utm_source=wa&_ref=

CitizenGO

Citizengo is a community of active citizens that seeks to promote the participation of society in politics.

https://citizengo.org/de/pt/12935-Nein-zum-Selbstbestimmungsgesetz--Schalten-Sie-das-Verfassungsgericht-ein-?_ref=

ConstructionTime · 16/04/2024 19:38

@SwordToFlamethrower
"Are the German government so naive as to think that people won't exploit the system and abuse it or do they really just not care about the safety, dignity and fairness for women and children?"

Unless you actively search for or look at specific media, there is not much additional information in-your-face about all the implications down the road, mostly the coverage is very general and not going into details about safe spaces for women and children, the healthcare implication, the fairness aspect and so on. Also, as in the discussions here about the UK, it’s mostly about TW feelings and not about the feelings of the women shoved aside.

Language confusion: the German word “Geschlecht” implies both biological and social information. Especially in literature and philosophy, the social meaning additionally to the biological was always there. One could separate the meanings by saying “biologisches Geschlecht” und “soziales Geschlecht”.

With the introduction of the gender debate, usually there was no separate German word in everyday language. People would have to use “soziales Geschlecht”, for example, but mostly the English term “Gender” was used. Though most people speak English, I am not sure really everyone twigged the complete meaning.

Stirred into this word pudding was the discussion about traditional roles, which is much older.

That way, many people who reject traditional roles for men and women (in-)voluntarily accepted the gender-changes, too. I think this is a crucial point and where it went wrong and took a wrong turn, and into regressive stereotypes.
A man who wears dresses, has long hair and likes knitting can do all that while being a man.
A woman with short hair, a pilot license, who collectors toy tractors and hates cooking can do all that while still being a woman.

Instead somehow this freedom from fixed social roles of the past and from dress codes was mixed (probably intentionally) with the trans debate.

ConstructionTime · 16/04/2024 19:39

@SwordToFlamethrower

(cont.)

Another strong aspect is the #bekind movement, too, without any further thought to whom the new law is very unkind.

Finally, and very crucial, there is a lot of #nodebate and any questions about scientific evidence and a Cass-report like responsibility are turned either into transphobic or people are immediately shunned as right-wing (which they are in 99,9% of the cases not).

The right-wing party/parties has indeed included this topic into their talking points (just like in the US) which is why it would have been much better if the democratic parties had been less of a walkover and more reasonable.

This is absolutely crazy as usually the Germans will argue until they’re blue in the face about correct sorting into the different recycling bins, but this is just swept away as “don’t ask about that”.

Of course any decent left-wing/socialdemocrat/green-person does not want to be thrown together with the far-right for questioning this topic and asking for evidence / pointing out the problems, which is why it’s a very handy shut-up mechanism.

Brefugee · 16/04/2024 20:59

GrumpyPanda · 16/04/2024 12:54

This is the two of them at a previous committee hearing:

That photo enrages me. No woman would get away with that outfit in that jib

OP posts:
Brefugee · 16/04/2024 21:05

In Finland the self-ID law only applies to adults, but it has been badly thought through. Finland is a country with mandatory military service for men, so this law could be misused by men wanting to avoid military service.

Germany has already said there will be an exemption and that TIM will have to join up.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 16/04/2024 21:23

Can I ask what German media is like, is there much open, free discussion? Is it diverse?

mrshoho · 16/04/2024 21:28

When I read about that exemption it just emphasises the absurdity of this whole situation. An ordinary citizen can be prosecuted and fined for misgendering a male who self identifies as a woman. But in the event of a war the government will make an exemption and insist these Males are in fact men. In effect misgendering them. It is r I d I c u l o u s. They don't believe this crap do they? They know already men will self identify for nefarious reasons.

OldCrone · 16/04/2024 21:33

mrshoho · 16/04/2024 21:28

When I read about that exemption it just emphasises the absurdity of this whole situation. An ordinary citizen can be prosecuted and fined for misgendering a male who self identifies as a woman. But in the event of a war the government will make an exemption and insist these Males are in fact men. In effect misgendering them. It is r I d I c u l o u s. They don't believe this crap do they? They know already men will self identify for nefarious reasons.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Their official ID documents say they're female, but government records still say they're male. So everyone else has to pretend that they've changed sex, but the government doesn't.

Maerchentante · 16/04/2024 21:36

ArabellaScott · 16/04/2024 21:23

Can I ask what German media is like, is there much open, free discussion? Is it diverse?

"Der Spiegel", one of the biggest news and current affairs magazines often had comments open until about a year ago, then they changed the topics you could comment on. Now they only have "debates" to certain topics for a very limited amount of time.
The "Focus" is, I'd say, a centre-right magazine, the few articles I read on there often had comments open which where overwhelmingly in opposition to TRAs and their goals.

Germany's biggest news paper is Bild, but I don't read it (really) nor does anyone I know. However, I would be very surprised if they supported the new law.
The issue with Bild is, that people who read it are looked down upon as uneducated, racist and many more isms you can think of, a bit like DM readers are regarded. Nevermind that between all the sensationalism and hyperbole, there are truthful(ish) and good articles.

On the public radio station I listen to, it wasnt even mentioned.

Maerchentante · 16/04/2024 21:38

Still live in the UK, so not sure now much it is present day to day, but from what I gather none of my family knew about the proposed law or that parliament would vote on it.

Winterborne74 · 16/04/2024 21:39

An ordinary citizen can be prosecuted and fined for misgendering a male who self identifies as a woman. But in the event of a war the government will make an exemption and insist these Males are in fact men. In effect misgendering them.

SelfID law passed in German parliament.
ConstructionTime · 16/04/2024 22:32

ArabellaScott · 16/04/2024 21:23

Can I ask what German media is like, is there much open, free discussion? Is it diverse?

There are two main categories of media, public and private.
Public TV and radio stations are supposed to be neutral and report impartial, but they are also of course obligated to the democratic values. Thus, when there is a topic that endangers democracy, they shouldn't be impartial and uncritical. The public media is financed by taxes and a fee which every household pays.
I think that is a comparable category to the BBC perhaps.

I think there is no "public" newspaper in that sense, but the TV and radio stations have homepages and apps, and for example "Tagesschau", which was linked here, is the homepage of the main evening news of public TV.
The "Deutsche Welle" is a public site / station with news in English, but I looked there this week for the coverage on this topic and it wasn't that much.

Then there are all the private TV and radio stations, newspapers and pages. These often lean towards one party or another, or not directly towards a party but towards a political group, like liberal, socialdemocratic, conservative and such. A subgroup of them is the Yellow Press, or like other posters mentioned "Springer media/press", with Springer being the main publisher behind many of them, but they also publish weekly magazines that are not exactly Yellow Press, but more centre.
Springer could be compared to Murdoch media.

It seems the debate is free, in theory, it's just not always very in-depth or complex.
A big problem are also trolls and hate-campaigns, and unless you have nerves of steel and a bunch of lawyers behind you, some people will not publish some things anymore, which are then mostly smaller homepage or social media accounts, who don't have the apparatus behind them like large corporations.

GrumpyPanda · 16/04/2024 22:44

Coverage on the bill has been very restricted. I'd say partly because the topic still has low issue salience, and also, needs too much prior knowledge - so it's outsourced to the activists who have an axe to grind.

Public broadcasters are utterly captured - one saccharine "trans child" film or documentary after the other. Broadsheets are mostly the same with less of the sentimentality. The main Berlin paper, Tagesspiegel, is utterly captured, apparently due in part to trans offspring somewhere up high, plus Berlin is the capital of woo. The Swiss Neue Zürcher Zeitung is critical, but sadly also a little too well liked by the German right wing, although a hard right hostile takeover failed a few years ago. That limits their credibility.
The right-wing press in Getmany itself means mostly Springer with their broadsheet Welt and tabloid Bild, and they've been oddly reticent. A couple of years ago Springer head Döpfner quashed critical coverage after Die Welt got disinvited from a careers fair after providing a forum to a GC guest article. They're now slowly putting their head over the parapet again, but only cautiously.
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/medien/streit-um-transgender-gastbeitrag-in-der-welt-doepfner-und-die-queere-jobmesse-sticks-stones-18081571.html

Oh and funnily enough the wackiest left-wing paper of them all, taz, has been somewhat heterodox for years. Lots of utterly strident transactions articles, but also occasional pieces by a lovely GC journalist, Jan Feddersen. I think it's cause they're still anarchists at heart.

Streit um Transgender-Gastbeitrag in der „Welt“, Döpfner und die queere Jobmesse „Sticks & Stones“

In der „Welt“ kritisieren fünf Gastautoren die angebliche Transgender-Ideologie des öffentlich-rechtlichen Rundfunks. Daraufhin wird der Springer-Konzern von der queeren Jobmesse „Sticks & Stones“ ausgeladen. Nun schaltet sich Springer-Chef Döpfner ein...

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/medien/streit-um-transgender-gastbeitrag-in-der-welt-doepfner-und-die-queere-jobmesse-sticks-stones-18081571.html

StainlessSteelMouse · 17/04/2024 00:43

I often roll my eyes at taz, but occasionally it has its moments.

Neues Deutschland (roughly equivalent to the Morning Star) has been weirdly quiet on the whole issue, apart from a hit piece against the Wagenknecht people accusing them of being fellow travellers of the far right. I know ND is formally independent of Die Linke these days, but it's still constricted by the party's politics (and the TWAW position of the dominant faction isn't universally popular in the party) so it's contented itself with taking a pop at an acceptable target.

I also suspect ND know their actual audience of elderly East Germans are not on the same page as the trendy urban vote that the Linke leadership are chasing, so their feminism mostly takes the form of waxing nostalgic about the GDR's abortion law.

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 10:00

Thanks so much, that's fascinating.

I wonder if there's some global organisation that reports on media country by country, how open it is, how it's funded, how widely read, with commentary on press freedom etc.

Maerchentante · 17/04/2024 18:41

While listening to German radio the news just came on. They had a piece about women's rights but framed it as such:

"A study commisioned by ... showed that the rights of women, girls and 'gender diverse people' are under attack world wide".

You couldn't make that up. Didn't hear who commisioned the study, but will pay attention should it be mentioned on the hour.

They used the expression "Geschlechtsdiverse Menschen" which in this case I would translate (and have) as "gender diverse". Of course, that is an oxymoron as there are two sexes, not ninety billion genders.

Maerchentante · 17/04/2024 19:29

Listened to the news again, different news reader, only talking about the rights of women and children, but mentioned it was a UN study.

ConstructionTime · 17/04/2024 20:12

Maerchentante · 17/04/2024 19:29

Listened to the news again, different news reader, only talking about the rights of women and children, but mentioned it was a UN study.

I saw that today, too. And very interesting framing. I saw the Tagesschau-Version: It's a study by the United Nations Population Fund.
In this newspiece, the large photo at the top is from Germany (or another German-speaking country) about protests against patriarchy.
The part of the study the news text focuses about is about women's health, safe pregnancy and sanitation, and then about patriachal societies where women can't say no.
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/weltbevoelkerungsbericht-frauenrechte-un-100.html

While women's health is certainly a big topic in Germany as well, this is not on the same level as unsanitary conditions and lack of access to clean water.

I think the header photo doesn't match the rest at all. Also no irony about "women's rights under threat".

The UN-report itself is here:
https://www.unfpa.org/swp2024

UN-Bericht zeigt, wie Frauenrechte weltweit eingeschränkt werden

Trotz wichtiger Fortschritte steht es um die Rechte von Frauen auf der ganzen Welt weiterhin schlecht. Armut, Diskriminierung und fehlende Gleichberechtigung kosten Leben, heißt es in einem UN-Bericht.

https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/weltbevoelkerungsbericht-frauenrechte-un-100.html

ConstructionTime · 17/04/2024 20:25

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 10:05

Actually, there's more information and context on that site than I'd realised!

Here's Germany:

https://rsf.org/en/country/germany

I agree with the overview, and there have been more reports these years about reporters being attacked, which I don't recall as much from the past.
Also far-right parties sometimes like to restrict access by media, despite it being a tradition that journalists can cover such events.

As for the protest movement against the self-ID law, I found some groups, RadFems in Berlin

https://radfemkollektivberlin.net/

and LSquad Berlin

https://linktr.ee/lsquadberlin
https://www.lsquadberlin.de/
The latter is a German version of Let Women Speak, Lasst Frauen sprechen, probably there are more groups than just in Berlin.

Additionally, the Green Party traditionally reserves half of their election list spaces for women (on all levels of elections, from communal to national) (iirc they alternate between men and women), and the TW from the photo earlier and a third one took up three of these spaces on the national level.

In German national election law, the percentage a party receives of the votes determines how many people from the list are then elected, meaning that voters cannot select particular people from the list or change the order that the party has set out.

Home - RadFem Kollektiv Berlin

RadFem Kollektiv Berlin - We are a group of radical feminists doing stuff in Berlin.

https://radfemkollektivberlin.net

ConstructionTime · 17/04/2024 20:27

PS: I don't know why my reply was hidden, FYI there were links to German women groups in them, not my own pages or anything.

Delphin · 18/04/2024 09:08

@ConstructionTime :
"Additionally, the Green Party traditionally reserves half of their election list spaces for women (on all levels of elections, from communal to national) (iirc they alternate between men and women), and the TW from the photo earlier and a third one took up three of these spaces on the national level. "

Tessa Ganserer actually is not a TW in the legal sense. TG is self-identified and has no GRC (the German equivalent). TG is legally still a man and is listed in Bundestag files as "Tessa (Markus) Ganserer". TG said that the Transsexuellengesetz needed to be reformed before he would apply for a german GRC. This case was one of the things that made me look into the queering of politics and inform myself about transgender politics.
Well, I might write to Ganserer and ask him to put his money where his mouth is, or otherwise to step down and make way for a biological woman on the women's list.

Delphin · 18/04/2024 09:32

I've looked around for a thread on the German Self ID law, but couldn't see one here. Looks like I didn't scroll far enough down. :-) There is no equivalent forum in Germany, so the might be more German women coming here...

On German media:
There's also the weekly DIE ZEIT, of which I am a subscriber (one of the largest weeklies, politically centist-left).
The printed edition is generally balanced, bringing articles and commentary from both sides of the debate.
The online portal is less balanced, especially concerning moderating reader comments. I assume that the moderator brigade is generally bunthaarig (blue-haired) and under 30...

The worst part of their site is "Ze. tt", the part aimed at young people. One can only describe it as fully captured. In more than one way, i. e. "woke" talking points are their bread and butter. No way to place even a slightly gender critical comment there, I nearly lost my account and was banned for a week.

I tried to place a mention of WPATH files and the Cass report under a pro-self-ID law commentary in the ZEIT part last week , but it was not publicised (deleted, not moderated, i. e. its not in my comments history. Not for the first time. I have started to copy-paste all my comments into a word file, to be able to fight the moderator decisions). I might CC the Editors office in, to get on their nerves!

Chersfrozenface · 18/04/2024 09:32

So 3 transwomen (legally so or self identified) took up 3 of the spaces reserved for women on the Greens' list.

How many transmen were there on their list?

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