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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SelfID law passed in German parliament.

167 replies

Brefugee · 12/04/2024 15:03

It's done.
636 votes
373 yea
251 nay
11 abstentions

Am going to assume that there will now be a long legal challenge. I want to scream.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Delphin · 18/04/2024 09:34

@Chersfrozenface : As far as I know, none.

Chersfrozenface · 18/04/2024 09:36

Delphin · 18/04/2024 09:34

@Chersfrozenface : As far as I know, none.

How very not surprising.

Delphin · 18/04/2024 09:39

@Chersfrozenface : But then in the age group that most MPs are in, MtF transsexuals are the largest group. FtM prominently known I couldn't name a single one in the 40 to 60 bracket, MtF at least half a dozen.

Chersfrozenface · 18/04/2024 09:49

Delphin · 18/04/2024 09:39

@Chersfrozenface : But then in the age group that most MPs are in, MtF transsexuals are the largest group. FtM prominently known I couldn't name a single one in the 40 to 60 bracket, MtF at least half a dozen.

See also female socialisation, which does affect transmen, however much they want to deny it, and not putting yourself forward. Part of the very reason for having reserved places to begin with.

Not to mention that transmen would have to compete with (biological) men, with male socialisation, very much putting themselves forward, and generally more political and social experience.

StainlessSteelMouse · 18/04/2024 12:29

Die Linke also aim to have 50% women on their lists. I'm not aware (yet) of TW taking those places, but in a party with a 70% male membership, I wouldn't be surprised to see it soon. Particularly if they get hammered in the eastern state elections and become a rump metropolitan party in Berlin and Hamburg.

There have been quite a few prominent women defecting in the recent split, which doesn't surprise me. It's certainly the case that the most loudly politically correct element of the party has strong brocialist tendencies.

It doesn't help either that the current female co-leader Janine Wissler got her political training in the German franchise of Britain's own SWP.

ConstructionTime · 18/04/2024 16:36

@Delphin It’s so strange, people vote for the Greens to support protection of the environment, reduction of resource use for the economy and freedom from traditional male/female societal roles, and you blink for one second and they’ve voted to take away half of your civil rights.

@OldCrone about conscription: this might prove another breaking point, as additionally the German MoD mulls reintroduction of a conscription army on a general basis (which was abolished some years ago to be replaced by voluntarily enrolment only) or at least conscription according to the Swedish model, where not everyone of a certain age is automatically conscripted.

Though the previous model was men-only, and women can join, but are not required to. New models might use another mode.

Additionally, someone under hormone treatment and with surgery scars poses a great risk in an actual battle, as they might require extra medication and wound care, and if there is an actual war, the medication or material might not be available anymore.
Of course people might have other issues that require medication (diabetic, for example) but these are medical needs and not voluntarily taken up.

ConstructionTime · 18/04/2024 16:37

Thanks very much @Brefugee for starting the thread; the more I read up about what’s happening in Germany the more I think I’ve landed in some dystopian novel.

Before the bill passed, there were some safeguards in an earlier draft. Due to strong lobbying, they were removed. There is an open petition online by TRA and I was flabbergasted to see who signed in and was in favour of removing women’s rights.
This is the TRA petition, signed by (amongst others, the full list is on that page in a separate link)
https://innn.it/jazuselbstbestimmung

(signed by)
President of the German Women’s Association (!!) (“Deutscher Frauenrat”)
CEO of the national association of womens’ advice center / womens’ helpline
A member of the German Female Lawyer’s Association
A member of the board of the Protestant Women in Germany
Many shelters and helplines for women in various cities
Pro Familia, an influential organization that was very good about abortion rights and information for teenagers / young people in need (probably like Planned Parenthood)
An organization that fought against traditional roles and for neutral toys for children (against the blue for boys, pink for girls-concept) – that was to mean every child can play with cars, lego, dolls and dress-up, I didn’t expect it to mean removal of protection and rights for girls and women.

There are also individual people who signed, for example Teresa Bücker, who wrote for Die Zeit and other magazines, published a feminist magazine Edition F and other activities. I thought she was a feminist, apparently not anymore.

innn.it

https://innn.it/jazuselbstbestimmung

ConstructionTime · 18/04/2024 16:38

Another interesting GC-blog I found is that of Rona Duwe. Her articles often are published in both English and German, and otherwise it’s worth it to run them through a translation program, as they are very solidly argued.
https://www.ronalyze.de/p/abschaffung-der-rechtlichen-kategorie#%C2%A7abolition-of-the-legal-category-woman-in-germany (both in German and English below)
Her speech at a protest in front of parliament.

This is the latest text and listed at the end are legal options:
https://www.ronalyze.de/p/das-selbstbestimmungsgesetz-in-deutschland

There are three ways a case can be brought to the constitutional high court, due to the self-ID law being contrary to the constitution.

Rona Duwe also links to a blog that further discusses the legal options and lays out why the law is unconstitutional:
https://www.rechtsgutachtensbgg.de/

Additionally, people need to be watchful about the medical transition of children. Despite the Cass report, some German commissions who lay out the treatment guidelines, act very captured, too. There is one doctor in this commission who is against it (and aghast), he was interviewed by the magazine Emma:
https://www.emma.de/artikel/trans-kinder-ein-medizin-skandal-340959
and Rona Duwe about the logical fallacies of the argumentation:
https://www.ronalyze.de/p/the-trans-child-narrative

Abschaffung der rechtlichen Kategorie “Frau” in Deutschland (de/en)

Meine Rede auf der Protestaktion zur Verabschiedung des Selbstbestimmungsgesetzes am 12. April 2024 vor dem Reichstag in Berlin

https://www.ronalyze.de/p/abschaffung-der-rechtlichen-kategorie#%C2%A7abolition-of-the-legal-category-woman-in-germany

GrumpyPanda · 19/04/2024 07:14

Chersfrozenface · 18/04/2024 09:32

So 3 transwomen (legally so or self identified) took up 3 of the spaces reserved for women on the Greens' list.

How many transmen were there on their list?

Actually I'm almost certain there was a transman candidate for Bundestag somewhere (don't recall name or land) and that this was in fact the third trans candidate, not another TW. That said, she evidently didn't make the cut-off, so wasn't placed high enough on the party list to begin with. Go figure.

The Green Party position on self-identification into lists is even more deliciously absurd BTW. Just last year their Bundesschiedsgericht, or top internal arbitration tribunal, decided that pure self-declaration on the spot actually isn't sufficient for a male candidate to apply for a women's spot - said male's gender identity needs to be at least semi-permanent (this was after an MRA type and overall opponent of women's quotas tried to be nominated for a City government post): https://taz.de/Gruener-kandidiert-als-Frau/!5919837/.

Two years before that there was another incident where a gender-critical Green man, David Allison, similarly self-declared at a nominating assembly in Baden-Württemberg. He was permitted to stand, received a few votes but didn't make the list. He then had the temerity to leak the story to the staunchly GC feminist Emma magazine and was subsequently fired from his job working for the local Green member of the Landtag. https://www.emma.de/artikel/gruener-mann-entlassen-338959

Grüner kandidiert als Frau: Ein Mann im Sinne der Statuten

Kurz vor einer Wahl bei den Grünen erklärte sich ein Kandidat als Frau, um von der Quote zu profitieren. Nun wurden die Regeln genauer bestimmt.

https://taz.de/Gruener-kandidiert-als-Frau/!5919837

GrumpyPanda · 19/04/2024 17:13

Somebody mentioned the Linkspartei. This is their youth organisation in action at a pride parade a couple of years back. Very stark contrast with the dissident group around Sahra Wagenknecht (alas not an option for federal elections since they're also full of nutters beholden to Putin - one of them posed next to camouflage-clad Donbass pseudo-separarists back in 2015 or 16.)

ConstructionTime · 19/04/2024 19:37

GrumpyPanda · 19/04/2024 07:14

Actually I'm almost certain there was a transman candidate for Bundestag somewhere (don't recall name or land) and that this was in fact the third trans candidate, not another TW. That said, she evidently didn't make the cut-off, so wasn't placed high enough on the party list to begin with. Go figure.

The Green Party position on self-identification into lists is even more deliciously absurd BTW. Just last year their Bundesschiedsgericht, or top internal arbitration tribunal, decided that pure self-declaration on the spot actually isn't sufficient for a male candidate to apply for a women's spot - said male's gender identity needs to be at least semi-permanent (this was after an MRA type and overall opponent of women's quotas tried to be nominated for a City government post): https://taz.de/Gruener-kandidiert-als-Frau/!5919837/.

Two years before that there was another incident where a gender-critical Green man, David Allison, similarly self-declared at a nominating assembly in Baden-Württemberg. He was permitted to stand, received a few votes but didn't make the list. He then had the temerity to leak the story to the staunchly GC feminist Emma magazine and was subsequently fired from his job working for the local Green member of the Landtag. https://www.emma.de/artikel/gruener-mann-entlassen-338959

Thanks, I read the article that is linked within the Emma report, about the candidate's description of the event.
When he candidates "as a woman", he is asked by the board members about how far he transitioned, and how he feels, and replies that this is not about his feelings. That according to their own statute, declaring himself a woman is enough to candidate for the women's spot.

They must have been so conflicted, being called out like that and having it highlighted how easy it is to "misuse" this rule. That's why they had to let him on the ballot, otherwise their own construct would have fallen down and they would have been out of the official party guidelines. It's clear they weren't really believing him, either, but too scared to call Emperor's new clothes.

The latter decision by the parties' own court is indeed completely absurd. But in fact it could have contributed to the parliament bill - they just moved the self-declaration to another sphere: If the party should go by GRC-alike declaration in the population register, then the GRC must be easy to obtain - and they moved it to Germany's administrative sphere.

In that sense, the Greens went against their own rules with the Markus/Tessa Ganserer-example, as @Delphin said.

RebelliousCow · 02/05/2024 20:36

I'm bumping this to tie in with a recently created thread.

GrumpyPanda · 11/05/2024 00:03

Just updated the other thread as well. The German Medical Association just voted a resolution to disallow self-ID for under 18s. That's pretty big news.

https://twitter.com/segm_ebm/status/1789001105214759378

https://twitter.com/segm_ebm/status/1789001105214759378

Brefugee · 11/05/2024 10:50

was happy to see this - i am more hopeful the law as it is proposed will not be ratified.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 11/05/2024 10:54

Wow, that's massive news! Needs its own thread probably?

GrumpyPanda · 11/05/2024 12:49

ArabellaScott · 11/05/2024 10:54

Wow, that's massive news! Needs its own thread probably?

Possibly. Especially as it's convoluted - earlier this year new treatment guidelines came out that are very much in the affirmative mode, and only GC voices on Twitter noticed that they'd been downgraded from the highest ("evidence-based") category to a more speculative one. Also, AFAIK all insurance funding of trans medicine is currently up in the air after an NB claimant failed in court trying to get treatment paid for. The coalition agreement stipulates full takeover for all GAC costs so that should get interesting, especially since questions on reimbursement policy are normally taken by an independent board.

Brefugee · 11/05/2024 13:07

I was turned down for partial costs towards a breast reduction. They are huge and. Impact my life (I've more or less come to terms with them but I was very depressed etc at the time)

If anyone is getting unnecessary (plain affirmation instead of therapy then maybe surgery) cosmetic surgery fully funded - all the can dates in each and every election I vote in will be hearing about it. At length

OP posts:
Delphin · 11/05/2024 19:48

If anyone is getting unnecessary (plain affirmation instead of therapy then maybe surgery) cosmetic surgery fully funded - all the can dates in each and every election I vote in will be hearing about it. At length.

This is a point where the funding of therapies for gender dysphoria might still fall. They can't have it both ways. Either gender dysphoria is a proper diagnosis of an illness, like cancer or schizophrenia, then it will be funded, and rightly so. Or it isn't an illness, then it cannot be funded through the social health programme.
People will have to take the long way through the courts, now that the lawmakers f*** it up.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/05/2024 20:21

GrumpyPanda · 12/04/2024 20:58

It's worse than that. No parental consent necessary from 14. "Sex change" possible essentially from birth, pace social services' involvement. From age 5 the agreement of the child itself is also required.

Important to know this and not go to live there with a child.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/05/2024 20:32

ScrollingLeaves · 11/05/2024 20:21

Important to know this and not go to live there with a child.

I have now read
Grumpy’s update that there will be no self-ID under 18.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/05/2024 20:37

Is this a reason to be glad we are not in the EU?

GrumpyPanda · 11/05/2024 21:51

ScrollingLeaves · 11/05/2024 20:32

I have now read
Grumpy’s update that there will be no self-ID under 18.

We don't know that. Basically, the German Medical Association has asked for modifications to the Self-ID law passed last month and due to take effect later this year which would indeed let minors (with either parental or court involvement) change their sex marker. Whether or not the ruling coalition listens to this.. But secondly, the resolution is slow incredibly important because it directly attacks WPATH type affirmatiin-only guidelines that were drafted earlier this year by a group of German gender doctors. So it is almost certainly going to have some impact on treatment decisions for young people.

Brefugee · 12/05/2024 13:05

ScrollingLeaves · 11/05/2024 20:37

Is this a reason to be glad we are not in the EU?

that's a bit grasping at straws. The short answer is no.
The longer answer is that in the Netherlands they appear to be rethinking a lot of their policies. In Poland, Hungary and France i suspect there is no chance of laws promoting anything approaching transgender.

As for poster with "watch out taking your 14 year old to Germany" do you honestly think they will give gender affirming surgery/treatment to anyone not resident? I don't.

In many ways much of Germany is very very progressive. And in other ways it is hyper conservative. After the next elections which i expect will veer rightwards, and then we'll all dust ourselves off and see what happens.

OP posts:
GrumpyPanda · 15/05/2024 19:31

So the government has now read the Medics' Resolution I posted a few days ago, and their response is to out fingers firmly in ears and chant "nya nya nya." What a surprise.

https://archive.ph/z19vT

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