Older generations show resistance to trans rights

[Inauthentic]

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

Women: Members of the biological sex class which, in the absence of disorders of sexual development or other infertility, can bear but not beget children.

Men: Members of the biological sex class which, in the absence of disorders of sexual development or other infertility, can beget but not bear children.

It doesn't really matter what configuration of changing room you prefer. There are thousands of gyms, swimming pools and sports clubs up and down the country that have male and female communal changing. Even if we all agreed on some new arrangement of changing rooms that pleased everyone and miraculously had the funds to rebuild them all - you are advocating for males to be allowed in female communal spaces now. Just because you don't care where people look, doesn't mean others don't. I know the women in my immediate family don't want to be stared at by pervy males while they change for swimming or sports.

And even though you prefer this, this is NOT the material reality we live in. So, whether you prefer it or not is irrelevant.

What you are advocating for is harmful to women and children. You have had this explained to you for several threads now but you cannot acknowledge that harm.

It doesn't matter what you prefer, we have to live in the reality. And not your idyll.

Cross posted with underthinker

You're correct that we need to define men too. I was replying to someone who thought that we didn't need to strictly define women and didn't mention men.

It's not really my business where people direct their eyes to be honest, but if I felt a man was being creepy I'd happily confront or report him. Facilities should be well staffed so that people never have to be feel intimidated when using them, by people of the same or a different gender.

Almost all sexual crimes are committed by men. That is, by bioligical males. Regardless of how they 'identify'. Statistically the offending pattern of transwomen is consistent with the sex class they belong to, not the gender they say they belong to. Is it so hard for you to understand that seeing as a huge proportion of women (actual women, that is) have suffered violence, rape and/or sexual harassment might feel very strongly about males being allowed into places where they are naked or particularly vulnerable?

Also, unisex, individual or third spaces often don't seem to be very popular with transwomen. I wonder why.

For the "but what about intersex people with disorders of sexual development" crowd, I covered this on another thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5044422-jk-rowling-laying-it-out-clearly?reply=134344478

I don't think plenty of older people are resistant to people living as trans, but to people claiming to actually be women. Certainly it would never trouble me a jot, and I'm even happy with single sex toilets, as long as they are completely separate (cubicle with loo and sink) but I don't accept that they actually are women (in the case of trans women). People bullying trans people in the streets are as disgusting to me as homophobes. But I don't accept they actually are women, and it does in some ways transgress our rights as women, as often discussed on here. And why should we have to pretend? Give them separate facilities in some cases, give women sex based rights, then we can all shut up about it.

I find their views restrictive, ill-informed and backwards. I'd also suggest that my generation had stronger principles around equality, liberty, diversity and fundamental human rights than younger generations, many of whom seem either to take them for granted or are unaware of what they are in practice, what it looks like when you don't have them, and how they arose in the first place.

Talking to my millenium dcs, one issue is that, yes, they do see some of the stuff as ‘normal’.
So they assume their reality (in their little bubble) is THE reality. They don’t get some of the issues I’m talking about because it’s so far from their own experience. So they assume it’s an older generation problem because ‘they’ aren’t as enlightened. (See they are also more racist etc… too).
But I’m also finding that, as they grow older and have more experience if the world, some stuff clicks. That what they experience now (eg girls get much better results than boys at A levels) might not be the same reality when they are adults and working (eg wage difference, difference in career progression etc…).
Some stuff is completely foreign to them, just like a life wo the internet. Like women not being able to have their own bank account. And tbh I can understand that. It’s foreign to me too and I’m 54yo…. And I’d struggle to imagine a world now where women wouldn’t have that right….

My maiden great aunt swam regularly until dementia hit her in her late 70s. She had never seen a penis in her life why should she have been forced to share the changing room with any man regardless of whether he was also partial to a flowery lilac swim hat?

Ps I was against single sex toilets until I saw them myself-one corridor with lots of toilet doors off, containing everything needed within, including hand dryers.

Perhaps might like to think about what I (like many others), as a woman who has suffered various social and economic inequalities over the decades due to my sex, have in common with a group of middle aged men wearing wigs, lipstick and sexualised female clothing?

So, puberty blockers and it being a 'grey area'. Any further info on this?

Anorexic people truly believe they’re fat. So?

Oh, and maybe you missed the photo of the ‘woman’ standing in a department store exposing ‘her’ penis?

I'm a millennial.

I support trans rights of course as I support all human rights. I do not support the erosion of women and childrens rights.

Usually when the talk is on trans rights what is really being discussed is taking away the rights of others.

To be fair I think it is fair to say that some seemingly intelligent people with an otherwise excellent command of the English language don’t know what a cervix is and where to find one either, do they India?

Really? I thought the post was a succinct dig at the cry-bullying tactics of TRAs.

Usually when the talk is on trans rights what is really being discussed is taking away the rights of others.

This. As I pointed out earlier the thread title of the OP is extremely loaded. Their demands to have unfettered access to stuff for the opposite sex is framed as "rights" and we are merely "resisting" those "rights". Rather than say, fighting for our own "rights".

Sorry meant to quote @PurpleBugz

A great post. And this line in particular:

I see women's rights and the ones we fought so hard for being stripped away for a few men

‘ I mostly support trans rights’ what rights exactly?

I'm wondering if IW "I am a female" knows she has a prostate? So adamant is IW that she is a female, shouting it out whilst waving and posting her passport around. It's really very concerning. Is it just a case that underneath it all she knows she is gasp a male and when looking after the male issues will have no qualms about switching back.

I believe they have a genuine need and right (based on internal sense of self) to identify as a woman, to be called a woman, to wear female clothes without being ridiculed, to use women's bathroom

Some adults identify aa babies or children. Presumably if an adult's 'internal sense of self' says they are a 6 year-old, that is a genuine need and right too, then? After all, a person literally is, and should legally be considered to be, whatever they identify as, right? I think @ForCoralFox said upthread that it was 'different with children's spaces, where all adults should have a DBS. So as long as the adult identifying as a child had no police record (yet), would he be fine to be in a primary school class? As long as the school was well-staffed, obviously...

Late 30s.

I worry about the precedent that is being set for children that instead of them being encouraged to love themselves as they are and to realise that they don’t need to conform to stereotypical views of masculinity and femininity…. They are being sold the idea that if they don’t fit a specific mould of male or female, this must mean they are the other, must engage with drug therapy and serious life changing surgery.

To be honest I think it’s hugely damaging and I think that children, young people and genuine trans people were much better protected whenever mental illness was considered as the first port of call - an enormous amount of people who think they are trans are either mentally ill or neurodiverse, vulnerable and impressionable. This doesn’t negate that there are genuine trans people who need support but the movement is so big now it is encapsulating these very vulnerable people who outnumber those with a genuine problem. Without mental health intervention and people having to go through a prolonged course of therapy before properly transitioning, this bigger group are going to be scooped along, having their mental health worsen and having treatments that are inappropriate for them with potentially life changing consequences.

Then there’s infringement on women’s rights, risk of pedophiles and sex attackers using the wider acceptance of trans as a mask and the nhs funding what is completely unnecessary cosmetic surgery.

It’s a total mess, the majority of society are going to be suffering in some way to accommodate the often unreasonable and aggressive demands of a minority….

While I am supportive of self expression and people having the right to behave as they wish within the law… when it is liable to cause very much bigger problems for others, specifically child development, mental health, crime, women’s rights… I find it problematic.