Cass review - out on Wednesday

[ArabellaScott]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/06/children-socially-transition-face-grave-psychological-risks/

Major.

Thanks for reposting that clip Alec. It's a while since I saw it, though I still have a visceral recoil reaction whenever Sarah Smith pops up on the news. It's very worth revisiting in the light of the report, and I hope Smith herself has watched it again. I wonder if she'll make any comment. (An apology to GL would be nice but maybe too much to hope for.)

Mermaids and stonewall promoted this crap to kids and should face criminal investigation write to MPs and demand it just like they have demanded we stay silent. Also for anyone interested in stories of de transition check out https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCcqbl7mdr74gqA-92muSMaw A rare transexual in as much he believes this is a mental illness and interviews people and discusses all the horrors of this ideology. It’s truly terrifying

I found that whole section (section 6) in the report quite odd.

My understanding is that the reason that there are male traits (e.g. aggression, and later libido) which are shown in stereotypical ways, and by extension female traits, is because of a combination of biology (testosterone or lack of, during various developmentmal stages including childhood) and socialisation. With children, this can manifest itself in which toys children select.

This seems uncontroversial as it makes sense that there would be a biological as well as a socialogical origin behind sex-based stereotypes. However, it's impossible to separate out the impact of nature v nurture in any quantitative way.

Where it gets unhelpful is when Cass refers to these stereotypical male and female behaviour profiles as a "gender identity". Perhaps it's an attempt to try and make sense of the ridiculous list of sex-based stereotypes that are used in the DSM-5 to diagnose gender dysphoria? Either way, it would have been far better if she had explored this without the phrase "gender identity" being used.

Found this. Thought it apt for this thread.

Just seen this on Twitter. It’s all coming tumbling down thank god!

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/11/ban-on-childrens-puberty-blockers-to-be-enforced-in-private-sector-in-england

And in the Graun no less. In an article which describes the Cass report as “important” rather than “a transphobic attack on trans people perpetuated by the right wing” or whatever bollocks we’ve come to anticipate from them.

<reaches for smelling salts>

Yes, it's an interesting volte face at the Graun.

Perhaps it is just another example of the credulousness of their journalists; they need to be told what to think rather than doing the work.

Which is a shame because a moderate centre-Left paper is my natural political home.

The Cass report is the golden bridge for the Guardian, because it allows fact based reporting. Many Guardian readers are intelligent and ideologically uncompromised - close family of mine, for example - and have simply ignored the genderwoo as silly and beneath their notice, like much lifestyle journalism. They really can’t ignore it any more.

I hope so

Now bring mermaids and stonewall need to be brought to account

SEGM's very thorough response to Cass:
https://segm.org/Final-Cass-Report-2024-NHS-Response-Summary

Thank you @BreadInCaptivity for the BMJ article.

I have posted this link on another thread. It’s the minutes from one of the Scottish Government Gender Recognition Reform Committee hearings https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/official-report/search-what-was-said-in-parliament/chamber-and-committees/official-report/what-was-said-in-parliament/ehrcj-21-06-2022?meeting=13837&iob=125452

It’s Professor Alice Sullivan’s excellent evidence about the importance of data collection based on sex and why it should be a requirement in the Act.

Professor Sullivan also contributed to the UK Office for Statistics Regulation guidance on data collection on sex and gender
https://osr.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/our-work-on-data-about-sex-and-gender-identity/

I am sending anyone who sends me a survey with conflated questions about sex and gender a copy of the guide recommending they follow best practice.

This is a great piece of analysis. Thank you for posting @DameMaud

There's lots of good information in here but to pick out a couple of parts:

1. the issue of gender identity being given credence is mentioned. Although I really don't want to pull apart such a great piece of work by Dr Cass, I'm glad that the door has been left open to challenge this aspect. See highlight in screenshot below.

2. they have highlighted the importance of the analysis on the number of children and young people who go on to medical transition. This is often an area that I've seen TRAs use as a gotcha, with phrases like "hardly anyone goes on to medically transition so why are you so concerned about that pathway". We already have the 98% figure of those who take puberty blockers going on to cross-sex hormones but the new information goes wider than that. Obviously not all children and young people who are referred will have been put on puberty blockers so a more meaningful figure is how many go on to a medical transition pathway in total (irrespective of puberty blocker use). Although this is still unknown, because of the transfer to adult services and lack of follow-up, there is more information about what that might look like. I'll put the screenshots in a separate post.

Screenshots for point 2

Cass could not say there's no such thing as trans kids. Anyone who thinks it could is naive. It is something beyond the scope of the review at this moment in time. Simply because there's no evidence to back that claim up - at this stage.

But as we start to look at comorbidity issues the evidence will build and I do think we could be looking at a different picture which will raise questions about schools and safeguarding. And the internet more generally.

At that point we can start to ask the right questions.

Timing is crucial. You can't run before you can walk. This is about consensus building based on solid foundations. You have to let the evidence lead.

Yes. This exactly, Red.

Fair point.

She's certainly left the door open to that by saying that things are "not yet understood" (the highlighted part of my screenshot).
This is a positive way to think of it and something that is helpful to keep in mind.

It's frustrating that there wasn't more of a baton to help with the schools' guidance, to keep the momentum going before we have a seemingly inevitable change of government. Even an echo of it being a "contested belief" or similar from the draft guidance (screenshot below) would have helped in that regard. What it highlights is that there is still a hard slog ahead, despite how pivotal this report is.

I've still not forgotten Brigit Phillipson coming on to Mumsnet and telling us in a Q&A that Labour would start a consultation process if they got in to power. When the government consultation subsequently came out, she was very woolly in how she "welcomed" it. Focusing on the fact that it was happening, rather than anything in it. Perhaps I'm being too cynical but I am concerned that there is too much of an opportunity for further delay.

Here's a clip of Brigit's response at the time:

There's this part in the SEGM response about Cass' use of ' gender identity':

Questioning the assumption of the gender identity theory:
While some have criticized the Cass report for relying on constructs coming from the gender identity theory (e.g., referring to “gender identity” without critically assessing the origin and validity of this concept), the report did briefly address the outdated nature of the assumptions on which the “gender-affirming” care model is based. The report noted that the theory of gender identity development was set forth in 1966 by Kohlberg, who described a typical progression whereby by the age of 5-6, children develop gender identity constancy.
The report noted the obvious fact that the current patterns of both identifying as transgender for the first time at much older ages and also the growing phenomenon of detransition and re-identification with natal sex demonstrably contradict this theory.

As a follow-up:

https://twitter.com/benryanwriter/status/1779682267356418193

https://www.quackometer.net/blog/2024/04/breaking-down-cass-review-myths-and-misconceptions-what-you-need-to-know.html

NB: it would be gracious of Owen Jones to respond to his inadvertent use of misinformation and disinformation.

A study of ll the rejected studies would actually be interesting especially if there was a ay to correlate major findings to the ideology of the authors.

Yes I was thinking that.

TRAs complaining that studies were rejected only leads me to conclude that an analysis of those studies would be more than useful, and yet another foot shooting exercise on their behalf.

NB: it would be gracious of Owen Jones to respond to his inadvertent use of misinformation and disinformation.

I doubt he cares enough.

I would welcome an analysis of the low quality studies and an argument as to why they should be included.

Such researchers are also welcome to re-run the analyses, including those studies, and comment on the impact of that. I would then like evaluations such as those in the Cochrane Handbook that test the impact of including or excluding individual studies.

TRAs complaining that studies were rejected only leads me to conclude that an analysis of those studies would be more than useful, and yet another foot shooting exercise on their behalf.

Exactly. There was an AIBU yesterday where someone with an obvious agenda was saying that Cass was wrong because observational studies were important and shouldn't have been discounted because they "weren't doubled blinded controlled trials". I and others repeatedly pressed the OP to link the studies they felt had been unfairly ignored. Of course they didn't do this.

Here

To nominate the principle authors of the CASS review for this.. http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/5049818-to-nominate-the-principle-authors-of-the-cass-review-for-this