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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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76
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 11/04/2024 10:57

I downloaded a copy of the Cass review last night and looked through it. Haven't read it all through (it's too long and detailed to read in a sitting!) but read the intro and contents and looked over the references and dipped in to a couple of sections (can you tell I'm an academic by trade? 😀) And I am deeply impressed. This review is comprehensive, thorough, rigorous, and readable. It even includes a summary of what kinds of studies could realistically be done. No wonder it took so long to produce.

And I don't expect to like everything the report says, though I'm in agreement what most of what I have read so far. But the idea that anyone could "debunk" this whole work within 24 hours is ludicrous and reflects badly on whoever made such claims.

Well done Dr Cass.

SinnerBoy · 11/04/2024 11:06

borntobequiet · Today 07:33

I understood that the “weak evidence” was a more or less total lack of evidence on account of not bothering to collect any reliable data on outcomes (probably in the knowledge that they would be unlikely to support the case for the use of the medication anyway).

I've been delving into parts of Cass. Appendix 4 is quite interesting:

/https://cass.independent-review.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/CassReview_Final.pdf

There is a lack of high-quality evidence to support recommendations for puberty suppression or hormones for masculinisation or feminisation in children/adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria or incongruence. There is a lack of evidence comparing outcomes of adolescents who receive puberty suppression followed by hormones for masculinisation or feminisation to those who receive hormones only. Future guidelines should report the methods of development in full, with greater transparency about the links between evidence and recommendations and how recommendations are made in the absence of evidence.

Robust research is needed to address the significant gaps in our understanding of the potential short- and long-term outcomes of social transition, the risks, and benefits of puberty suppression and hormone interventions, and the appropriateness and effectiveness of different psychosocial interventions. Identification and agreement of core outcomes would help to ensure that what is important to relevant stakeholders is being collected and this would support future aggregation of evidence. High-quality studies using an appropriate study design are needed as is robust reporting. High quality standardised data collection should be routinely undertaken in gender clinics to enable comparison in outcomes for children and adolescents accessing different services.

SinnerBoy · 11/04/2024 11:13

19.4 When the Review commenced, access to the specialist GIDS service was unusual in that the service accepted referrals directly from primary care (a GP) and from non-healthcare professionals including teachers and youth workers.

19.5 The audit of GIDS discharge notes, undertaken by Arden & Gem CSU in spring 2023 (Appendix 6), found that 48.6% of patients referred to GIDS were referred by CAMHS/ child and young people mental health services and 40.68% were referred by their GP. Of the remaining, referrals were made by other healthcare providers (2.6%), local authorities (3.3%), the voluntary sector (3.1%) and schools (1.8%).

19.6 This created a number of problems:

The information recorded on the referral was highly variable and often lacked even the basic information that the specialist team would need to screen and triage the patient.

Patients who would not usually meet the threshold for a specialist service were being referred, meaning waiting times increased for everyone without a way to discern those who genuinely required specialist input from those who could be managed in secondary care or even primary or community care.

Once referred, it was unclear who held clinical responsibility for the care of the young person.

Usual assessments that would be undertaken by a secondary care practitioner (for example, safeguarding assessment, mental health assessment) were not being completed for these young people, particularly those referred through a non-healthcare route. This means that there is an unknown level of risk inherent in the legacy waiting list, that is, it is not known which young people may be at risk of self-harm or suicide, and which may be at risk due to family breakdown or other safeguarding issues.

TheClogLady · 11/04/2024 11:46

Gosh, that point re: unknown risk factors of the cohort who were referred via non-clinical routes is really quite upsetting. Thanks for flagging it up @SinnerBoy.

RethinkingLife · 11/04/2024 11:53

I strongly suspect that the people who are having their voices and assertions about the Cass Review amplified to such great effect by the media have been far too busy appearing on media spots or posting their reckons on TwiX to have actually read the report.

They've been successfully brief with Lifton's thought terminating clichés to articulate and they've rarely been challenged to move beyond that.

That Mitchell and Webb Look - Send us your reckons

"Well never mind what she thinks what do YOU reckon?"Copyright BBC. I will remove this video clip if requested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnd5ilKx2Y

YetAnotherSpartacus · 11/04/2024 11:59

Has anyone objecting to Cass actually based their objections in a critique of the methods/methodology used or an evidenced case that she didn't find or use the best quality evidence?

Or do they just not like it?

RethinkingLife · 11/04/2024 12:12

YetAnotherSpartacus · 11/04/2024 11:59

Has anyone objecting to Cass actually based their objections in a critique of the methods/methodology used or an evidenced case that she didn't find or use the best quality evidence?

Or do they just not like it?

The number of people commenting, they could all take one of these studies apiece and

  • evaluate it using the standard tools
  • make an argument as to why [X study] should have been included
  • explain that it doesn't fit within the agreed methods and processes of a systematic review (see link to Cochrane Handbook above) but
  • they'd include it in a narrative view because…
  • integrate all of these into a rapid evidence synthesis and pop it onto a pre-publication server for review by others.

They could do this with a team of 20 in a 10-20 days because they obviously have a list of studies that they think should have been included (although that would have breached the protocol that stated the cut-off date). A team of 50, could do this earlier if they had a decent formatter. They'd just have to publish the PICO (population, intervention, comparator, outcomes), extracted data, and their arguments, I'm not asking for a full blow evidence synthesis but they could still pop it onto a pre-publication server.

TheClogLady · 11/04/2024 12:57

RethinkingLife · 11/04/2024 12:12

The number of people commenting, they could all take one of these studies apiece and

  • evaluate it using the standard tools
  • make an argument as to why [X study] should have been included
  • explain that it doesn't fit within the agreed methods and processes of a systematic review (see link to Cochrane Handbook above) but
  • they'd include it in a narrative view because…
  • integrate all of these into a rapid evidence synthesis and pop it onto a pre-publication server for review by others.

They could do this with a team of 20 in a 10-20 days because they obviously have a list of studies that they think should have been included (although that would have breached the protocol that stated the cut-off date). A team of 50, could do this earlier if they had a decent formatter. They'd just have to publish the PICO (population, intervention, comparator, outcomes), extracted data, and their arguments, I'm not asking for a full blow evidence synthesis but they could still pop it onto a pre-publication server.

That would be great!

Definitely not holding my breath tho!

SinnerBoy · 11/04/2024 13:06

YetAnotherSpartacus · Today 11:59

Has anyone objecting to Cass actually based their objections in a critique of the methods/methodology used or an evidenced case that she didn't find or use the best quality evidence?

Or do they just not like it?

They just don't like it, because it shows the practitioners to be a gang of unethical shits, who were winging it all the way.

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2024 13:16

SinnerBoy · 11/04/2024 13:06

YetAnotherSpartacus · Today 11:59

Has anyone objecting to Cass actually based their objections in a critique of the methods/methodology used or an evidenced case that she didn't find or use the best quality evidence?

Or do they just not like it?

They just don't like it, because it shows the practitioners to be a gang of unethical shits, who were winging it all the way.

Quite.

As soon as a bunch of quality level evidence is built up, I'm curious as to where exactly it's going to lead us and whether it will find any clinical benefits.

If it doesn't... Well...

SpidersAreShitheads · 11/04/2024 13:21

WarriorN · 11/04/2024 09:20

@SpidersAreShitheads id only say it with confidence in this situation. I teach children with autism.

I won’t derail this thread but I’ve seen many teachers and many schools miss the signs of an autistic child - and I include autism-specialist units and schools in that. Girls especially tend to be missed.

I may have misunderstood but you seem to be suggesting that diagnosis doesn’t help because there’s so little practical help available. Although it can be difficult to come to terms with, it’s invaluable for an individual- particularly a vulnerable teen - to understand why they struggle with the things they do. I can’t overstate the importance of truly understanding yourself and eventually realising that you’re not just rubbish at life - there’s a reason why things are hard.

There’s a chance that a diagnosis will provide a sense of identity- and sometimes even community - hopefully avoiding the child seeking out gender care as an explanation for feeling “other”.

BonnyBo · 11/04/2024 13:46

I’ve seen objections about Cass citing toy preferences not just being gendered stereotypes but partially biologically driven.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 11/04/2024 14:26

SpidersAreShitheads · 11/04/2024 13:21

I won’t derail this thread but I’ve seen many teachers and many schools miss the signs of an autistic child - and I include autism-specialist units and schools in that. Girls especially tend to be missed.

I may have misunderstood but you seem to be suggesting that diagnosis doesn’t help because there’s so little practical help available. Although it can be difficult to come to terms with, it’s invaluable for an individual- particularly a vulnerable teen - to understand why they struggle with the things they do. I can’t overstate the importance of truly understanding yourself and eventually realising that you’re not just rubbish at life - there’s a reason why things are hard.

There’s a chance that a diagnosis will provide a sense of identity- and sometimes even community - hopefully avoiding the child seeking out gender care as an explanation for feeling “other”.

In my experience you have to know how to use the diagnosis to get help. The diagnosis doesn't automatically bring help but it's an esssential building block.

hopefully avoiding the child seeking out gender care as an explanation for feeling “other”.

It hasn't necessarily worked out that way in practice. Autism charities that used to avoid whacky ideas are very gender-id positive. (They probably claim to be LGBT-etc inclusive but they don't really talk about sexual orientation because that's, well, sex) And the end result of charities normalising gender confusion to autistic people is - well, imagine if the chelation nutters had taken over the NAS.

Though to be fair - I did complain at one point to the NAS a couple of years ago about them having some unsuitable material on their website. The site's been reorganised and it's not there now, so maybe these whacky ideas are already falling out of favour at last.

The Cass report will help some more.

BreadInCaptivity · 11/04/2024 16:10

Couldn't see this posted yet. Great article in the BMJ:

t.co/tSJVPtFKjE

"One emerging criticism of the Cass review is that it set the methodological bar too high for research to be included in its analysis and discarded too many studies on the basis of quality. In fact, the reality is different: studies in gender medicine fall woefully short in terms of methodological rigour; the methodological bar for gender medicine studies was set too low, generating research findings that are therefore hard to interpret. The methodological quality of research matters because a drug efficacy study in humans with an inappropriate or no control group is a potential breach of research ethics. Offering treatments without an adequate understanding of benefits and harms is unethical. All of this matters even more when the treatments are not trivial; puberty blockers and hormone therapies are major, life altering interventions. Yet this inconclusive and unacceptable evidence base was used to inform influential clinical guidelines, such as those of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which themselves were cascaded into the development of subsequent guidelines internationally (doi:10.1136/bmj.q794).7"

MrsOvertonsWindow · 11/04/2024 16:15

BreadInCaptivity · 11/04/2024 16:10

Couldn't see this posted yet. Great article in the BMJ:

t.co/tSJVPtFKjE

"One emerging criticism of the Cass review is that it set the methodological bar too high for research to be included in its analysis and discarded too many studies on the basis of quality. In fact, the reality is different: studies in gender medicine fall woefully short in terms of methodological rigour; the methodological bar for gender medicine studies was set too low, generating research findings that are therefore hard to interpret. The methodological quality of research matters because a drug efficacy study in humans with an inappropriate or no control group is a potential breach of research ethics. Offering treatments without an adequate understanding of benefits and harms is unethical. All of this matters even more when the treatments are not trivial; puberty blockers and hormone therapies are major, life altering interventions. Yet this inconclusive and unacceptable evidence base was used to inform influential clinical guidelines, such as those of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which themselves were cascaded into the development of subsequent guidelines internationally (doi:10.1136/bmj.q794).7"

That's a really helpful explanation Bread. Hopefully others can use it when challenging the fuckwits flailing around trying to discredit Cass.

BonfireLady · 11/04/2024 16:35

MrsOvertonsWindow · 11/04/2024 16:15

That's a really helpful explanation Bread. Hopefully others can use it when challenging the fuckwits flailing around trying to discredit Cass.

Ha ha! Yes, I've already started doing just that on X.

DameMaud · 11/04/2024 16:41

Thanks for that @BreadInCaptivity
This is fantastic!

ArabellaScott · 11/04/2024 17:07

BreadInCaptivity · 11/04/2024 16:10

Couldn't see this posted yet. Great article in the BMJ:

t.co/tSJVPtFKjE

"One emerging criticism of the Cass review is that it set the methodological bar too high for research to be included in its analysis and discarded too many studies on the basis of quality. In fact, the reality is different: studies in gender medicine fall woefully short in terms of methodological rigour; the methodological bar for gender medicine studies was set too low, generating research findings that are therefore hard to interpret. The methodological quality of research matters because a drug efficacy study in humans with an inappropriate or no control group is a potential breach of research ethics. Offering treatments without an adequate understanding of benefits and harms is unethical. All of this matters even more when the treatments are not trivial; puberty blockers and hormone therapies are major, life altering interventions. Yet this inconclusive and unacceptable evidence base was used to inform influential clinical guidelines, such as those of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which themselves were cascaded into the development of subsequent guidelines internationally (doi:10.1136/bmj.q794).7"

Good to see sense in the BMJ.

This is amazing, it really does feel like an opportunity for the establishment to take a deep breath, and admit that gender ideology is obvious faith based woo.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 11/04/2024 17:21

'monstrous'

I love how in the face of a report that took an experienced pro four years to research and put together the activists come out within 24 hours with kneejerk hyperbole and extremism that works as the perfect illustration of exactly the problems Cass highlights.

(Responding to Otter's post from Transactual).

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 11/04/2024 17:36

ArabellaScott · 11/04/2024 17:21

'monstrous'

I love how in the face of a report that took an experienced pro four years to research and put together the activists come out within 24 hours with kneejerk hyperbole and extremism that works as the perfect illustration of exactly the problems Cass highlights.

(Responding to Otter's post from Transactual).

Edited

Oops. Late to the party! 🥳

SidewaysOtter · 11/04/2024 17:38

ArabellaScott · 11/04/2024 17:21

'monstrous'

I love how in the face of a report that took an experienced pro four years to research and put together the activists come out within 24 hours with kneejerk hyperbole and extremism that works as the perfect illustration of exactly the problems Cass highlights.

(Responding to Otter's post from Transactual).

Edited

It’s almost like they had their responses ready to go…

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2024 17:38

BreadInCaptivity · 11/04/2024 16:10

Couldn't see this posted yet. Great article in the BMJ:

t.co/tSJVPtFKjE

"One emerging criticism of the Cass review is that it set the methodological bar too high for research to be included in its analysis and discarded too many studies on the basis of quality. In fact, the reality is different: studies in gender medicine fall woefully short in terms of methodological rigour; the methodological bar for gender medicine studies was set too low, generating research findings that are therefore hard to interpret. The methodological quality of research matters because a drug efficacy study in humans with an inappropriate or no control group is a potential breach of research ethics. Offering treatments without an adequate understanding of benefits and harms is unethical. All of this matters even more when the treatments are not trivial; puberty blockers and hormone therapies are major, life altering interventions. Yet this inconclusive and unacceptable evidence base was used to inform influential clinical guidelines, such as those of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which themselves were cascaded into the development of subsequent guidelines internationally (doi:10.1136/bmj.q794).7"

Baahahahhaha.

Yeah. As anyone who understands anything about research even at a fairly basic level had already worked out. But fair play to the BMJ for spelling it out explicitly.

Swipe left for the next trending thread