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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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76
RedToothBrush · 10/04/2024 18:45

BonfireLady · 10/04/2024 18:32

Not sure if there is a separate thread but wow. This woman has a way with words... It's almost like she has a gift.

Phenomenal post from JKR on X:
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1778105223728255439?t=Mrq1-X7A6TTTRSHqN9yjkg&s=19

I particularly like the add on reply after the thread where she burns the idiot who said she'd done no research!

RainWithSunnySpells · 10/04/2024 18:47

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2024 18:38

I rather like the fact the Cass Review has a whole section on what makes a good study and what makes a bad study and the hierarchy of different types of research.

It's like Research for Dummies. And the reaction saying it's transphobic in that context only serve the findings of the Cass Review, highlight who has read it and which idiots should definitely not be listened to. In a formalised way.

'saying it's transphobic'

Is that Erin Reed doing some 'debunking' again?

Ohyoudodoyou · 10/04/2024 18:52

I've noticed that the usual male critics are quickly throwing in other people's posts debunking this rather than their own views (Bragg and Jones for example, they seem to be posting less and less in women's rights now, curiously enough...) - not enough for them that this is a highly researched and factual document and that there are so many rational posts on twitter saying "you know what, now it's time to stop with all the arguing and try to do the right thing by those children to prevent this from happening again."

Ohyoudodoyou · 10/04/2024 18:55

I also saw Keira Bell
Posted a 'thank you' for the report. She's an incredible young woman and the flak she took during the court case was appalling. Thank you Keira.

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2024 18:55

RainWithSunnySpells · 10/04/2024 18:47

'saying it's transphobic'

Is that Erin Reed doing some 'debunking' again?

"Trans health is so shit"

Right. Here's some research and some evidence based reviewing.

"No. No. That research is not saying what I want."

This is a formal independent review following robust accepted protocols on evidence based medicine

"It's too gender critical. Why haven't you listened to transpeople?"

Actually the Review did. It reflected on many aspects but noted the level of anger and intimidation involved and that a number of the crucial claims about suicide and treatment being unproblematic and affirmation only were, to put it bluntly, a load of utter bollocks. And that pretty much everything the good women of MN said was problematic, unethical and unscientific was in fact errrr problematic, unethical and ermm yes unscientific

"Everything I don't like is transphobic wahhhhhwahhhhhwahhhhh"

Yeah we worked out it's like trying to reason with a bunch of toddlers so time ago.

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2024 18:56

Ohyoudodoyou · 10/04/2024 18:52

I've noticed that the usual male critics are quickly throwing in other people's posts debunking this rather than their own views (Bragg and Jones for example, they seem to be posting less and less in women's rights now, curiously enough...) - not enough for them that this is a highly researched and factual document and that there are so many rational posts on twitter saying "you know what, now it's time to stop with all the arguing and try to do the right thing by those children to prevent this from happening again."

I can't wait for OJs piece about how he'd always been in favour of evidence based trans medicine and he has a poster of JKR on his wall because he loves her that much.

Ohyoudodoyou · 10/04/2024 19:00

LizzieSiddal · 10/04/2024 12:49

I heard JV in the car and nearly had to pull over I was so angry. He’s such a coward! Here’s a watershed moment for children in England and Wales and he doesn’t have the guts to have a proper discussion. Instead he let that man talk about how awful he thought JK was. Angry

I've never in my life shouted abuse at an inanimate object the way I did today. (The inanimate object being my radio, although JV....)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/04/2024 19:41

@RedToothBrush Grin

DrBlackbird · 10/04/2024 19:49

BonfireLady · 10/04/2024 18:32

Not sure if there is a separate thread but wow. This woman has a way with words... It's almost like she has a gift.

Phenomenal post from JKR on X:
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1778105223728255439?t=Mrq1-X7A6TTTRSHqN9yjkg&s=19

Bit of DARVO by Emma there and some frantic scrabbling to keep Labour onside.

Propertylover · 10/04/2024 21:20

There is a lot of scrabbling going on. Yvette Cooper decided to go down the rabbit hole!

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2024 21:25

DrBlackbird · 10/04/2024 19:49

Bit of DARVO by Emma there and some frantic scrabbling to keep Labour onside.

All these TRA saying Cass is methodologically flawed, can they elaborate on how and why?

I'm curious. It doesn't seem to come with the necessary accompanying explanation.

nauticant · 10/04/2024 21:27

It's this kind of stuff:

https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1777755823743054120

Waitwhat23 · 10/04/2024 21:33

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/04/2024 16:54

Isn't it the case in Scotland, for eg, that for the purposes of criminal justice under 25s aren't treated in the same way?

Yes.

'The guidelines were put in place last year by the Scottish Sentencing Council and backed by SNP ministers, with provisions that under-25s should only go to prison when a court is satisfied no other sentence is appropriate.

The guidelines made rehabilitation rather than punishment a primary consideration.'

It was intended for minor offences but astoundingly has been applied to at least two rape cases.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-urged-to-review-sentencing-guidelines-as-scottish-rapist-of-13-year-old-teen-avoids-jail-as-kc-labels-sentence-extraordinary-4092183

Brainworm · 10/04/2024 21:34
  • All these TRA saying Cass is methodologically flawed, can they elaborate on how and why?

I'm curious. It doesn't seem to come with the necessary accompanying explanation.*

Believe it or not, a lot has been written about decolonising (and queering) psychology. The thinking here is that other cultures can show us much better 'ways of knowledge' and western notions of scientific study is oppressive and one dimensional.

The theoretic name is relativist ontology and suggests that reality is what is perceived and doesn't exist independently of human thought. This fits with the idea that trans, woman, research is whatever people think it to be.

RethinkingLife · 10/04/2024 21:41

nauticant · 10/04/2024 21:27

It's how evidence reviews are done.

A nice, straightforward, free downloadable book or audiobook: Testing Treatments

https://www.testingtreatments.org/

The tools, methods and processes are open and free to access. People have had decades to critique them if they wish.

https://training.cochrane.org/handbook/current/part-1

Part 1: About Cochrane Reviews

https://training.cochrane.org/handbook/current/part-1

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/04/2024 21:44

The theoretic name is relativist ontology and suggests that reality is what is perceived and doesn't exist independently of human thought. This fits with the idea that trans, woman, research is whatever people think it to be.

Makes sense that they go down that route.

DerekFaker · 10/04/2024 22:04

nauticant · 10/04/2024 21:27

I'm blocked by whoever that is.

Anyway, I've now seen Mishy's copypasta. Several times

Snowypeaks · 10/04/2024 22:08

Brainworm · 10/04/2024 21:34

  • All these TRA saying Cass is methodologically flawed, can they elaborate on how and why?

I'm curious. It doesn't seem to come with the necessary accompanying explanation.*

Believe it or not, a lot has been written about decolonising (and queering) psychology. The thinking here is that other cultures can show us much better 'ways of knowledge' and western notions of scientific study is oppressive and one dimensional.

The theoretic name is relativist ontology and suggests that reality is what is perceived and doesn't exist independently of human thought. This fits with the idea that trans, woman, research is whatever people think it to be.

Can you elucidate?

I know there are some crazy ideas around, but on the face of it that definition seems to suggest that if humanity went into a collective coma, or blew itself up, there would be no world, nothing. I'm sure that can't be right, so what do they mean by "reality"? Material reality? Surely not.

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2024 22:16

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/04/2024 21:44

The theoretic name is relativist ontology and suggests that reality is what is perceived and doesn't exist independently of human thought. This fits with the idea that trans, woman, research is whatever people think it to be.

Makes sense that they go down that route.

It's males who perceive and women who have to suck up the reality of mens superior perception.

That's why the word woman is up for debate but not man.

It's why we have the Cassandra effect which has been known since Ancient Greece.

Women are not allowed to perceive.

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2024 22:16

Also Freeman of the Land is jumping into my head randomly for some reason at this point.

nauticant · 10/04/2024 22:23

Maybe the reason is: hyper-individualistic fuck you attitude with disregard for conventions that make society work properly.

RainWithSunnySpells · 10/04/2024 22:45

DerekFaker · 10/04/2024 22:04

I'm blocked by whoever that is.

Anyway, I've now seen Mishy's copypasta. Several times

The Xitter post says:

Alejandra Caraballo

'TLDR of the Cass Review: "we disregarded nearly all studies because they weren't double blinded controlled studies. We also stopped reviewing newer studies released in the last two years. As a result, we were left with very little evidence." This is an impossible standard.'

Brainworm · 10/04/2024 23:03

Can you elucidate?

I know there are some crazy ideas around, but on the face of it that definition seems to suggest that if humanity went into a collective coma, or blew itself up, there would be no world, nothing. I'm sure that can't be right, so what do they mean by "reality"? Material reality? Surely not

Crash course - ontology is the study of knowledge. There are different philosophical stances regarding what knowledge actually is. Few question that the material world exists independently of human thought. For example, a tree. Trees exist whether or not they are known to us (say for example they were is an uninhabited part of the world, their existance isn't dependent on humans knowing of their existence), This ontological position is called realism. Epistemology is the study of methods that enable knowledge to be gained. When adopting a relativist stance, scientific methods (such as experimental designs and controlling variable) are deemed the most effective methods. This epistemological stance is called positivism.

When it comes to the social world, fierce debates arise over whether phenomenon exist independently of human thought or not. If you take dyslexia as an example. Some people will argue that it's an objective phenomenon and would exist whether or not it had been discovered. People would be dyslexic, just no one would know. Others argue that dyslexia only exists because we value and need literacy skills in todays world. They say that if literacy was an optional past time, like gardening, dyslexia literally wouldn't exist. Nobody would care about struggles with word level reading, no one would assume to be able to develop competence, and so deficits wouldn't exist. They suggest that if catching a ball was imperative to functioning on a day to day basis, we would 'discover' a condition/ phenomenon based on ball catching deficits. This is a relativist position that argues knowledge is socially constructed and reality changes over time and contexts,

Identity is clearly a subjective phenomenon and so lends itself to a relativist ontological stance. Typically, constructionist epistemologies go hand in hand with a relativist ontological stance, whereby methods to generate understanding (new knowledge) focus on illuminating the realities individuals and groups construct, trying to understand the phenomenon as they see or experience things. It is argued that the scientific method (such as CASS is calling for) is irrelevant. This is called a constructivist epistemological stance.

What is interesting about criticisms floating around today is the insistences that gender identity is an objective phenomenon and it existed long before humans 'discovered' it (realist ontology) but they are disparaging the methods that are typically used to learn about objective phenomenon (scientific method/ positivism). Instead, they are calling for a constructionist epistemological stance, whereby the truth can only be found through the perspectives of trans people.

Well done to anyone still with me in this. It's a bit of a nerdy area - but you did ask me to elucidate!

DameMaud · 10/04/2024 23:24

I'm with you in that I can understand as I'm reading it Brainworm, but I couldn't repeat it/explain it to anyone else.😀

Fascinating- the contradiction you outlined in the last paragraph.

Really appreciate you taking the time to lay this out. Thank you!

Snowypeaks · 10/04/2024 23:32

Brainworm · 10/04/2024 23:03

Can you elucidate?

I know there are some crazy ideas around, but on the face of it that definition seems to suggest that if humanity went into a collective coma, or blew itself up, there would be no world, nothing. I'm sure that can't be right, so what do they mean by "reality"? Material reality? Surely not

Crash course - ontology is the study of knowledge. There are different philosophical stances regarding what knowledge actually is. Few question that the material world exists independently of human thought. For example, a tree. Trees exist whether or not they are known to us (say for example they were is an uninhabited part of the world, their existance isn't dependent on humans knowing of their existence), This ontological position is called realism. Epistemology is the study of methods that enable knowledge to be gained. When adopting a relativist stance, scientific methods (such as experimental designs and controlling variable) are deemed the most effective methods. This epistemological stance is called positivism.

When it comes to the social world, fierce debates arise over whether phenomenon exist independently of human thought or not. If you take dyslexia as an example. Some people will argue that it's an objective phenomenon and would exist whether or not it had been discovered. People would be dyslexic, just no one would know. Others argue that dyslexia only exists because we value and need literacy skills in todays world. They say that if literacy was an optional past time, like gardening, dyslexia literally wouldn't exist. Nobody would care about struggles with word level reading, no one would assume to be able to develop competence, and so deficits wouldn't exist. They suggest that if catching a ball was imperative to functioning on a day to day basis, we would 'discover' a condition/ phenomenon based on ball catching deficits. This is a relativist position that argues knowledge is socially constructed and reality changes over time and contexts,

Identity is clearly a subjective phenomenon and so lends itself to a relativist ontological stance. Typically, constructionist epistemologies go hand in hand with a relativist ontological stance, whereby methods to generate understanding (new knowledge) focus on illuminating the realities individuals and groups construct, trying to understand the phenomenon as they see or experience things. It is argued that the scientific method (such as CASS is calling for) is irrelevant. This is called a constructivist epistemological stance.

What is interesting about criticisms floating around today is the insistences that gender identity is an objective phenomenon and it existed long before humans 'discovered' it (realist ontology) but they are disparaging the methods that are typically used to learn about objective phenomenon (scientific method/ positivism). Instead, they are calling for a constructionist epistemological stance, whereby the truth can only be found through the perspectives of trans people.

Well done to anyone still with me in this. It's a bit of a nerdy area - but you did ask me to elucidate!

Thanks for that, Brainworm.

This has all the hallmarks of the way the other side think. Taking something that falls into one category and applying to it the rules of a different category.

I may not be getting something, but it seems to me that a phenomenon eg dyslexia not mattering, or not being observed, is not the same as it not existing. If we didn't read and write, we wouldn't label the inability to see words or letters in the right order, that's all. To use "exist" in the way relativist oncology proponents do is as if the naming of something brings it into being. So I can definitely see what you mean about the appeal to genderists.

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