Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling laying it out clearly

155 replies

CrossPurposes · 06/04/2024 15:39

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1776616861888655835

"I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others."
Etc

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1776616861888655835

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Astariel · 06/04/2024 17:47

@AIstolemylunch I do wonder if some of the virtue signalling activist types have looked at, for example, what’s going on in Israel/Palestine and thought: I’m not really sure that I can claim that Scottish trans people actually are the most vulnerable and marginalised group on earth.

I also wonder if it’s made them give any critical thought to the use of the concept ‘genocide’.

I am cynical enough that I fear not.

RoyalCorgi · 06/04/2024 17:50

She's so right to say "never in human history have so many people decided pretending to be stupid is clever."

I find it so infuriating to end up in arguments with people who say things like "But sex is a spectrum! What about clownfish! What about women who don't have uteruses!" and sit there smugly as if they have just said something immensely clever and you are incredibly stupid for insisting that there are only two sexes, and humans can't change sex.

And yet, of course, these people know their own sex, and those of every person they encounter, perfectly well. They use that knowledge every single day of their lives.

Cancelledcurio · 06/04/2024 17:50

Aw JK you are such a wonderful woman . And please be PM of the world 👑 Thank you

MarieDeGournay · 06/04/2024 17:51

🌐JKR for President of the Entire Universe!💞
Memo to self: WTAF is a gamete? And have I been producing them all along? And mine are large? Do they come in small, medium and large? Do the birds and bees have them?
Those qq are entirely rhetorical, I know what you clever MNers are like, somebody with a PhD in... Gametology [genetics, perhaps?] will come on here in a flash and explain it all to me in words of one syllable or less.
Don't feel you have to, I take responsibility for my own ignorance and will read up on it asap.
I remain slightly put out by the fact that I have something that is so absolutely essential to my identity, but I only heard about recently. On MN. What else is going on in there that I know nothing about?😦

Pudmyboy · 06/04/2024 18:02

Mochudubh · 06/04/2024 17:28

Good grief! It really is Trying to Explain Reality to Fuckwits isn't it.

No-one has "both sets of equipment", how would that even come about?

I vaguely remember a sci-fi film where someone who was initially a girl, had an accident where the surgeons decided they were male and then they went back in time and impregnated their former self. It was bonkers,

Yes and then, when surgically altered beyond recognition, killed their older self, so: the baby is their own mother and father and killer.
Bonkers is the best word for it!

OnandOnforHoursandHours · 06/04/2024 18:05

Marie --
Gamete = egg, sperm, pollen, that sort of thing.

Women have large gametes that basically stay put -- eggs.

Men have small gametes that move -- sperm.

pickledandpuzzled · 06/04/2024 18:10

She’s been biting her tongue for a long time, I feel. It’s as though she’s saved all this stuff up until she has a couple of months available to nurse twiX and now she’s let rip.

dapsnotplimsolls · 06/04/2024 19:10

Great, now she's pissed off the beetroot-farmers too ...

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 06/04/2024 19:31

Mochudubh · 06/04/2024 17:28

Good grief! It really is Trying to Explain Reality to Fuckwits isn't it.

No-one has "both sets of equipment", how would that even come about?

I vaguely remember a sci-fi film where someone who was initially a girl, had an accident where the surgeons decided they were male and then they went back in time and impregnated their former self. It was bonkers,

In the extremely rare, as in "a single patient gets written up in The Lancet" kind of rare, case that a baby is born with one ovary and one testis, a maximum of one of the gonads will function. The testosterone produced by a single functioning testis is sufficient to suppress ovarian function. Transmen rely on this same effect from exogenous testosterone for menstrual suppression.

These babies usually have incomplete reproductive tracts for one or both sexes. I read a case of a boy with XX/XY chimerism who was born with one testis in the scrotal sack, a single vas deferens, and externally normal genitalia, and also an inactive ovary in the scrotal sack, a fallopian tube, and a partial uterine horn inside his abdomen. The inactivity of his ovary and functionality of his testis made him clearly a boy despite him having partial reproductive tracts for both sexes. After surgery to remove the female reproductive organs to prevent any risk of them causing future complications, there is no discernible reason why he shouldn't father children when he becomes of age to do so because he has a clear testis-to-penis path for sperm to travel down.

XX/XY chimerism doesn't stop sex from being binary. To the contrary, denial of the binary nature of sex discounts the reality that people with disorders of sexual development experience a medical abnormality that may require treatment to safeguard their health.

GenderlessVoid · 06/04/2024 19:33

I'm incredibly grateful that she's speaking for children and other vulnerable ppl, including me. She's brave, standing up against the Hate Crime law as well as trans activists. She shields us from powerful ppl who would hurt us, either intentionally, bc they don't think our concerns or voices are important, or bc of their ignorance or lack of understanding about why women and children need these protections. I'm in awe of how brave she is to risk her own reputation to protect us and how eloquently she speaks for us.

Thank you, JK Rowling. I'll never be able to express how grateful I am or how much I admire you.

SerendipityJane · 06/04/2024 19:35

Companies that have these fucking diversity questionnaires should amend that bollocks one about gender (you know, where it should say "sex") to be:

-Male
-female
-Non binary
-prefer not to say
-I agree with JKR

pickledandpuzzled · 06/04/2024 19:38

It’s not just that she’s right, or brave, or powerful- she’s just so gracious and lovely all round.

SallyIsEverSoNice · 06/04/2024 19:41

Full text:

@jk_rowling

You’ve asked me several questions on this thread and accused me of avoiding answering, so here goes.

I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others.

I don’t believe a woman is more or less of a woman for having sex with men, women, both or not wanting sex at all. I don’t think a woman is more or less of a woman for having a buzz cut and liking suits and ties, or wearing stilettos and mini dresses, for being black, white or brown, for being six feet tall or a little person, for being kind or cruel, angry or sad, loud or retiring. She isn't more of a woman for featuring in Playboy or being a surrendered wife, nor less of a woman for designing space rockets or taking up boxing. What makes her a woman is the fact of being born in a body that, assuming nothing has gone wrong in her physical development (which, as stated above, still doesn't stop her being a woman), is geared towards producing eggs as opposed to sperm, towards bearing as opposed to begetting children, and irrespective of whether she's done either of those things, or ever wants to.

Womanhood isn't a mystical state of being, nor is it measured by how well one apes sex stereotypes. We are not the creatures either porn or the Bible tell you we are. Femaleness is not, as trans woman Andrea Chu Long wrote, ‘an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes,’ nor are we God’s afterthought, sprung from Adam’s rib.

Women are provably subject to certain experiences because of our female bodies, including different forms of oppression, depending on the cultures in which we live. When trans activists say 'I thought you didn't want to be defined by your biology,' it’s a feeble and transparent attempt at linguistic sleight of hand. Women don't want to be limited, exploited, punished, or subject to other unjust treatment because of their biology, but our being female is indeed defined by our biology. It's one material fact about us, like having freckles or disliking beetroot, neither of which are representative of our entire beings, either. Women have billions of different personalities and life stories, which have nothing to do with our bodies, although we are likely to have had experiences men don't and can't, because we belong to our sex class.

Some people feel strongly that they should have been, or wish to be seen as, the sex class into which they weren't born. Gender dysphoria is a real and very painful condition and I feel nothing but sympathy for anyone who suffers from it. I want them to be free to dress and present themselves however they like and I want them to have exactly the same rights as every other citizen regarding housing, employment and personal safety. I do not, however, believe that surgeries and cross-sex hormones literally turn a person into the opposite sex, nor do I believe in the idea that each of us has a nebulous ‘gender identity’ that may or might not match our sexed bodies. I believe the ideology that preaches those tenets has caused, and continues to cause, very real harm to vulnerable people.

I am strongly against women's and girls' rights and protections being dismantled to accommodate trans-identified men, for the very simple reason that no study has ever demonstrated that trans-identified men don't have exactly the same pattern of criminality as other men, and because, however they identify, men retain their advantages of speed and strength. In other words, I think the safety and rights of girls and women are more important than those men's desire for validation.

I sincerely hope that answers your questions. You may still disagree, but as I hope this shows, I’m more than happy to have this debate.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 06/04/2024 19:44

SallyIsEverSoNice · 06/04/2024 19:41

Full text:

@jk_rowling

You’ve asked me several questions on this thread and accused me of avoiding answering, so here goes.

I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others.

I don’t believe a woman is more or less of a woman for having sex with men, women, both or not wanting sex at all. I don’t think a woman is more or less of a woman for having a buzz cut and liking suits and ties, or wearing stilettos and mini dresses, for being black, white or brown, for being six feet tall or a little person, for being kind or cruel, angry or sad, loud or retiring. She isn't more of a woman for featuring in Playboy or being a surrendered wife, nor less of a woman for designing space rockets or taking up boxing. What makes her a woman is the fact of being born in a body that, assuming nothing has gone wrong in her physical development (which, as stated above, still doesn't stop her being a woman), is geared towards producing eggs as opposed to sperm, towards bearing as opposed to begetting children, and irrespective of whether she's done either of those things, or ever wants to.

Womanhood isn't a mystical state of being, nor is it measured by how well one apes sex stereotypes. We are not the creatures either porn or the Bible tell you we are. Femaleness is not, as trans woman Andrea Chu Long wrote, ‘an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes,’ nor are we God’s afterthought, sprung from Adam’s rib.

Women are provably subject to certain experiences because of our female bodies, including different forms of oppression, depending on the cultures in which we live. When trans activists say 'I thought you didn't want to be defined by your biology,' it’s a feeble and transparent attempt at linguistic sleight of hand. Women don't want to be limited, exploited, punished, or subject to other unjust treatment because of their biology, but our being female is indeed defined by our biology. It's one material fact about us, like having freckles or disliking beetroot, neither of which are representative of our entire beings, either. Women have billions of different personalities and life stories, which have nothing to do with our bodies, although we are likely to have had experiences men don't and can't, because we belong to our sex class.

Some people feel strongly that they should have been, or wish to be seen as, the sex class into which they weren't born. Gender dysphoria is a real and very painful condition and I feel nothing but sympathy for anyone who suffers from it. I want them to be free to dress and present themselves however they like and I want them to have exactly the same rights as every other citizen regarding housing, employment and personal safety. I do not, however, believe that surgeries and cross-sex hormones literally turn a person into the opposite sex, nor do I believe in the idea that each of us has a nebulous ‘gender identity’ that may or might not match our sexed bodies. I believe the ideology that preaches those tenets has caused, and continues to cause, very real harm to vulnerable people.

I am strongly against women's and girls' rights and protections being dismantled to accommodate trans-identified men, for the very simple reason that no study has ever demonstrated that trans-identified men don't have exactly the same pattern of criminality as other men, and because, however they identify, men retain their advantages of speed and strength. In other words, I think the safety and rights of girls and women are more important than those men's desire for validation.

I sincerely hope that answers your questions. You may still disagree, but as I hope this shows, I’m more than happy to have this debate.

👏

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/04/2024 19:45

What she said ^^
Bloody marvellous woman. Flowers

RaininSummer · 06/04/2024 19:46

Amazing JKR has said it all so eloquently. I have emailed her words to myself for use if needed as I agree with all she said.

Swashbuckled · 06/04/2024 19:47

She’s like the antithesis of Voldemort, isn’t she; lighting up the airwaves at this crucial time.

IcakethereforeIam · 06/04/2024 19:54

An archive link for the Suzanne Moore article linked above

https://archive.ph/8GKnf it'll see you safely past the paywall poppets.

Humza is accusing JKR of misrepresenting his law. He claims that she wasn't arrested shows it's working exactly as intended 🤣 To coin a phrase, well he would say that, wouldn't he.

Skyellaskerry · 06/04/2024 19:54

SallyIsEverSoNice · 06/04/2024 19:41

Full text:

@jk_rowling

You’ve asked me several questions on this thread and accused me of avoiding answering, so here goes.

I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others.

I don’t believe a woman is more or less of a woman for having sex with men, women, both or not wanting sex at all. I don’t think a woman is more or less of a woman for having a buzz cut and liking suits and ties, or wearing stilettos and mini dresses, for being black, white or brown, for being six feet tall or a little person, for being kind or cruel, angry or sad, loud or retiring. She isn't more of a woman for featuring in Playboy or being a surrendered wife, nor less of a woman for designing space rockets or taking up boxing. What makes her a woman is the fact of being born in a body that, assuming nothing has gone wrong in her physical development (which, as stated above, still doesn't stop her being a woman), is geared towards producing eggs as opposed to sperm, towards bearing as opposed to begetting children, and irrespective of whether she's done either of those things, or ever wants to.

Womanhood isn't a mystical state of being, nor is it measured by how well one apes sex stereotypes. We are not the creatures either porn or the Bible tell you we are. Femaleness is not, as trans woman Andrea Chu Long wrote, ‘an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes,’ nor are we God’s afterthought, sprung from Adam’s rib.

Women are provably subject to certain experiences because of our female bodies, including different forms of oppression, depending on the cultures in which we live. When trans activists say 'I thought you didn't want to be defined by your biology,' it’s a feeble and transparent attempt at linguistic sleight of hand. Women don't want to be limited, exploited, punished, or subject to other unjust treatment because of their biology, but our being female is indeed defined by our biology. It's one material fact about us, like having freckles or disliking beetroot, neither of which are representative of our entire beings, either. Women have billions of different personalities and life stories, which have nothing to do with our bodies, although we are likely to have had experiences men don't and can't, because we belong to our sex class.

Some people feel strongly that they should have been, or wish to be seen as, the sex class into which they weren't born. Gender dysphoria is a real and very painful condition and I feel nothing but sympathy for anyone who suffers from it. I want them to be free to dress and present themselves however they like and I want them to have exactly the same rights as every other citizen regarding housing, employment and personal safety. I do not, however, believe that surgeries and cross-sex hormones literally turn a person into the opposite sex, nor do I believe in the idea that each of us has a nebulous ‘gender identity’ that may or might not match our sexed bodies. I believe the ideology that preaches those tenets has caused, and continues to cause, very real harm to vulnerable people.

I am strongly against women's and girls' rights and protections being dismantled to accommodate trans-identified men, for the very simple reason that no study has ever demonstrated that trans-identified men don't have exactly the same pattern of criminality as other men, and because, however they identify, men retain their advantages of speed and strength. In other words, I think the safety and rights of girls and women are more important than those men's desire for validation.

I sincerely hope that answers your questions. You may still disagree, but as I hope this shows, I’m more than happy to have this debate.

Wow ❤️ In case you’re on Mumsnet JKR, thank you!

Hisandherslop · 06/04/2024 19:59

You wonderful, wonderful woman. I attended LWS in 2020 and proudly stood in front of the I ❤JKR poster for a selfie. I’ve stood outside Holyrood and in George Square, Glasgow, I’ve spent hours filling out consultation forms and writing letters to MPs - at times I’ve despaired and thought ‘what’s the point, no one’s listening’ THANK YOU for fighting our corner - reading your piece today gave me hope and strengthened my resolve once again. Sorry I was unable to make it along to Edinburgh today - would have loved to have shared this Hope with a bunch of likeminded women.

HPFA · 06/04/2024 20:06

DoYouSmokePaul · 06/04/2024 17:06

Oh goody! How will they argue with this. 🍿

So far no-one seems to be trying to. Just repeating the mantras.

DoYouSmokePaul · 06/04/2024 20:17

HPFA · 06/04/2024 20:06

So far no-one seems to be trying to. Just repeating the mantras.

Even better.

HPFA · 06/04/2024 20:29

RoyalCorgi · 06/04/2024 17:50

She's so right to say "never in human history have so many people decided pretending to be stupid is clever."

I find it so infuriating to end up in arguments with people who say things like "But sex is a spectrum! What about clownfish! What about women who don't have uteruses!" and sit there smugly as if they have just said something immensely clever and you are incredibly stupid for insisting that there are only two sexes, and humans can't change sex.

And yet, of course, these people know their own sex, and those of every person they encounter, perfectly well. They use that knowledge every single day of their lives.

Nobody really believes it, even if they think they do. Any article you read that tries to use the "correct" terminology will always reveal at some point that the author know what sex is. This is why you get phrases like "Men and Birthing People", people just replace the word woman with something else but retain their knowledge that it's the woman who gets pregnant.