KjK "insane rant" thread 2

[AdamRyan]

First thread filled up just as it was getting interesting

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5036512-kjks-insane-rant

So let's keep it going. My characterisation if the two basic positions are:

1)KJK is a stone cold legend, haters gonna hate but many women will give her cash to bathe in champagne

2. KJK is taking right wing positions for clicks and cash, most recently criticising a doctors conference to stay relevant.

Happy to discuss further. There are some particular posts I want to respond to which I will c&p below

You've been doing it all through the thread. I wasn't specifically talking about that video.

Just going to throw this in cos it's an article I enjoyed, and a far more interesting and far more accurate analysis than "well known anti feminist who has inspired MRAs and various incel movements".

Don't usually like to join in with sidetracking threads, but I think it's fine on this one...

https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/april-2020/the-feminist-case-for-jordan-peterson/

I've read plenty of what he has to say. I find text easier to engage with than videos.

He is a proponent of evolution psych, e.g. that mens bad behaviour is innate to them being male. He talks about things like ensuring all men have a sexual partner to minimise violence and that men should be in charge because they are better at it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life.html

The left, he believes, refuses to admit that men might be in charge because they are better at it. “The people who hold that our culture is an oppressive patriarchy, they don’t want to admit that the current hierarchy might be predicated on competence,” he said.

I'm a radical feminist. I don't believe men or women should be limited by their biology. I believe women have been oppressed and exploited because of their biology. So yes, what he says is to me anti feminist.

Again, these are his words put of his mouth.

Why pick a man with these views as a "victim" on this thread?

And if that's a purity spiral, then so disagreeing with TRAs on the basis they think TWAW

I've certainly seen negative comment about her looks and her lipstick and how she looks like Marilyn Monroe, and about how she is a 'trad wife' and how all of that makes her somehow distasteful.

So basically, you want to say whatever you like about KJK but you don't want anyone else to disagree with you.

The Lobster thing has exactly the same flaws as the clownfish thing. 🙄.

You cannot use animals to say much interesting about human behaviour. Especially not animals from a different phylum. It's just nonsense.

Fine. So do better and don't join in with a similarly misogynistic response. You are only in control of what you do, not what other women do.

I have not written anything misogynistic at all. I'm describing why some people have said they don't like her, and the ways in which they have tried to put her down. You seem to think that saying a woman is attractive is misogynistic?

You've been doing it all through the thread. I wasn't specifically talking about that video.

Maybe we need a debate about whether that level of persistent misinterpretation must be innate or can be caused by socialisation....

You are only in control of what you do, not what other women do.

Ironic

It is interesting. She very neatly side steps the kind of antifeminist stuff he says though, on the basis "he is clever and an original thinker".

I feel like it's another case of he must realise what incels are going to do with his material on enforced monogamy.

Plus, just the pure distasteful rapey nature of even thinking of enforced monogamy as any solution. It would be like me proposing castrating 90% of men. But maybe he intended it like a thought experiment, like that feminist who said all PIV sex is rape.

Maybe start another thread about him? I'm happy to discuss on there.

I thought so too! 🤔

Also she is vibrant and attractive and has no issue with dressing in conventionally feminine ways - again - which turns off those who prefer a pair of DMs and and a side buzz cut to signal their rebel credentials.

Really? You don't see anything misogynistic in implying a certain kind of woman (defined by their appearance) is turned off KJK on the basis of her appearance?

I'm still trying to work out how my post is'misogynistic'.

Do people really think feminism is about downplaying the nature of feminine beauty or attractiveness, as if one cannot be a person of integrity and intelligence and attractive at the same time. Or perhaps we're not supposed to mention the obvious fact that attractive people appeal to others and most people like to look at attractive people. I know I do. I'm certainly hoping Jurgen Klopp's replacement at Liverpool Football Club is a looker, or certainly has some physical charisma.

I remember mentioning once thgat a large part of Penny Mordaunt's appeal to male Tory voters was her obvious physical charms. It is true. It is not misogynistic to point this out.

No, i don't! It is an observation of certain types of people who seem to get really riled by people like KJK. I've seen lots of negative comment on her physical presentation. The only people dressing like KJK or wearing their hair in that way at most TRA rallies are the blokes. Pink hair, over-sized dungarees with big pockets and a child-like back pack are the order of the day.

No, I think its misogynist to attribute what's happening to a woman to her looks.

She's pretty, so men want to shag her and women are jealous.

She's ugly, so I don't have to listen to her opinion because she's just jealous.

How women look are irrelevant. I highly doubt "jealousy" is a factor in most women's negative views about KJK. And it's misogynistic to write off women's genuinely held opinions as "She's just jealous because KJK is prettier than she is"

I also really take exception to you characterising a whole group of people as "preferring a pair of DMs and and a side buzz cut to signal their rebel credentials."

Just ridiculous stereotyping.

Sorry - I got you now. I don't go to TRA rallies so can't comment.

If you meant trans women are jealous of KJKs style you should have said that, because that's a whole different thing. TWANW

Innate, surely?!

Some women will judge based on appearance

some men will judge on appearance

thats a fact

Women shouldn’t be judged on their appearance, and yet they are. Recognising that isn’t misogyny.

Oh Lord Adam, you're the one who's started threads about her! You're the one who she affects. You're the one who is impacted by her.

i've never started a thread about KJK. That's you.

She learnt what she learnt from "women speaking" on mumsnet. That's because Justine/MNHQ gave us all the space to have those conversations when everyone else was banning them. I don't see you being so zealous in defending them on here.

Defending the other women who were on here? Little secret - many of those women are still here. The ones who are banned, I'm also in touch with.

I said on the last thread that the original speakers corner thing wasn't even her.

What do you mean? The Venice Allan thing at speakers corner? That wasn't a thing. It was a rendezvous point.

Somehow from your one sentence, following a quote about a video, that you picked out and bolded, I was not meant to think that was about the video odd

And you are the one who comes on, all guns blazing, to ferociously defend your idol.

Defending the other women who were on here? Little secret - many of those women are still here. The ones who are banned, I'm also in touch with. believe me, I'm well aware of the existence of the other place where the True Believers hang out, and have no desire to join if they've been banned from MN.

My point was more you act as if KJK spontaneously appeared. She didn't. When she starts giving other feminists the credit they deserve I'll start taking her more positively.

What do you mean? The Venice Allan thing at speakers corner? That wasn't a thing. It was a rendezvous point.. Yes. The thing where women with microphones spoke out, long before KJK did it. The thing where a woman was physically assaulted by a TRA for daring to be there.

She's not that ground breaking and is one of a cast of amazing women. And to me, she doesn't have my respect because she doesn't support other women and she regurgitated various shades of right wing and conspiracy based views.

I'm entitled to that opinion. Regardless of what you and "the other women" think.

"What do you mean? The Venice Allan thing at speakers corner? That wasn't a thing. It was a rendezvous point.. Yes. The thing where women with microphones spoke out, long before KJK did it. The thing where a woman was physically assaulted by a TRA for daring to be there."

That wasn't a thing. Venice had arranged a meeting in New Cross, and TRAs found out, so she said meet at speakers corner, and we went from there to the actual meeting (which she wanted to keep secret).

Maria Maclachlan was assaulted for standing around filming TRAs, while we waited to be given the address of the meeting.

There were no microphones, and no one spoke.