Keir Starmer unable to define a woman AGAIN

[IwantToRetire]

Suspect that the Sun doesn't care that much about women's rights, and are only trying to score points against Starmer. But his reply (if accurately reported is so avoiding in any way accepting women as biological females. And this will be our next PM.

Reading out questions of Sun readers, Political Editor Harry Cole asked the Labour chief if he still believed men can have cervixes and women can have testicles.

Asked again about his position on trans women and whether they can be defined as women, Sir Keir said: "We set out our position very clearly..."

He added: "Everybody knows there is a difference between sex and gender. I absolutely understand that and respect that. We will not be going down the road of self identification."

He went on:"As you well know the overwhelming majority of women, it's a biological issue...

"There's a small number of people in this country who are born into a gender they don't identify with and they often go through pretty hellish abuse.

"I think most people would say if we can find a way to be respectful to all the women we must properly respect and we have defended their rights and advanced their rights as a party, as a movement for many, many years and we will continue to do so, then fine.

"But we won't and I don't think we should simply abuse ignore, make fun or mock..."

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/26845883/keir-starmer-transgender-women-define-is/

Great points. I suspect that they join a male group their behaviour is rather different to when they are in a female group.

For instance, take what happens at these protests for instance. Male people behaving with male pattern violence but when arrested are reported as ‘women’. But the behaviour is all male patterned. Especially when there is a cross over with Antifa. Even those two male protestors in New York who took off their shirts and handled their estrogen grown breasts. I have not seen female people handle their breasts like that in a protest. So, I do suspect that if a male trans person joins a male hobby group, they don’t act the same as they would in a female hobby group. But that is me speculating.

Yes and even if some are thinking of daisies single sex provides necessary safeguarding, dignity and privacy

Pages of excuses on why women should accept males, going from one to the next and none of them stack up.

A person with AGP is arousal by being treated as a ‘woman’. Of course they are. It is being treated as if they are a woman.

I think it is two fold. I think it is both them being treated as women are treating, or as in a group, as if they were just one of the women so to speak. But it is also them acting as their interpretation of a woman and being accepted as this.

Them being out in presenting as a woman, being accepted as a woman is feeding their sexual fantasy. Just because they are not visually aroused by it then, the women who are treating them as a woman are feeding that arousal factor for later. It is in that way that they are being used as sexual props.

Can you explain why you disagree with finer detail please? So I can understand where I have this wrong.

And yet there are many times female people of all ages need privacy in the greater toilet space.

Because doors don’t always shut for one. Either a lock is broken or a pram is blocking. If there is no wheelchair access toilet available I have had to take my mother into a normal cubicle in her wheelchair. The door was wide open.

How many times are women cleaning their clothes in the public toilet space? Unless there is a hand dryer in a cubicle capable of drying off enough of a shirt or skirt (yes, I have seen this too) then what happens to women needing to clean off baby vomit, coffee, food, blood … whatever? I used to have to regularly rinse out my shirt as a nursing mother who was also attending work sometimes and couldn’t escape meetings to express in time. And trust me those breast pads don’t always work. So, even at work female people have complex needs.

And if there is a cubicle with a hand dryer, it is then out of action for as long as that woman is cleaning herself up. Causing delays for others.

While you, personally, seem to have never had to use a toilet for complex needs, doesn’t mean it is not a regular occurance and that other women don’t have the need that you seem to not have. Ignoring those needs is an act of dismissal and it may not be intentional, but it is dismissing the needs of others none the less.

Men are not allowed in single-sex spaces for women. Trans women often are. So, when you campaign for single-sex spaces, it's trans women that you are targetting. There aren't many threads about male cleaners, or male prison guards. When you say "biological men" the "biological" is there specifically to include trans women.

Muslim women, whose needs are often not otherwise considered by gender critical people, are used as a wedge against trans women. There are many fundamentalist muslim women who can't share spaces with the non-Muslim women - do you think that other women should have separate bathrooms as a result?

The ERCC, as with almost every single RCC in the country is inclusive of transgender people. They handled the situation very badly under employment law and are likely to lose the case, but if providers want to include trans women, they can. There can be a RCC which excludes trans women, but that's no reason to attack other RCCs for their perfectly reasonable choices.

It's entirely possible for a provider to respect the wishes of transphobic people and provide a non-transgender woman as a counsellor without outing anyone, just as they could respect the wishes of a non-Muslim to not have a Muslim counsellor if they chose to.

There aren't many threads about male cleaners, or male prison guards.

Not this again. Males who work in female-only spaces are DBS checked. Male cleaners even have a little sign to put up saying 'male operatives may work in these toilets' Do you want to give transwomen little signs @DadJoke

I encountered a male cleaner coming out of some female toilets the other week. He asked me to check if any women were still in there - there weren't - he then put up his sign and went in. Polite and considerate.

It's almost cute how @DadJoke's gotchas almost inevitable demonstrate the opposite of what they hoped

I’m not sure pp wants this to be the standard for all males in female toilets

It is only trans identifying men, and men with bad intentions using transwomen as cover, who want to enter women’s spaces other than for work purposes. How do you suggest that women keep their spaces as women’s spaces?

Yes. Male cleaners are almost always polite and considerate, just as most women, including trans women are. My point wasn't that male cleaners are dangerous, more that trans women are not and "concerns" based on nutpicking outlying cases are just a way of demonising people.

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic trans women are women, so they are still women's spaces. Men do not need to pretend to be women to assault women, and all the research in places where self-ID is introduced suggests there has been absolutely no change in the level of sexual assaults in bathrooms. These "concerns" are nothing to do with the actual safety of women, and everything to do with demonising trans women, who just want to use the bathroom.

Most men identifying as women are not polite and considerate. It's how we are in this current situation. They don't ask -they take and if women say no they issue threats.

trans women are women

Here's an old school question for you. In what way are they women? What do they have in common with all women that they don't have in common with men?

Men who claim to be women are still men. That is why they are "targeted". Other men aren't trying to get into women-only groups - it's only the misogynists, the chancers and the ones who claim a special identity. Their reason doesn't matter. Women say No.

Considering that 90% of the victims of sexual violence are women, I don't think that we have the balance of mixed-sex to single-sex rape crisis help right. There is over-provision for male victims who say they are women, and under-provision for women who need a single-sex space.

Yes many threats, so many recorded

Male cleaners who put up a sign and request entry well I’m sure that wouldn’t go down well with any male entering

If pp uses male cleaners as an example of well behaved males they’ve at least chosen the correct sex class. Although I doubt they want the sign option

Tw are not women. They don't have female biology and women don't actually share any womanly essence so there's no way TW can be a woman. They're TW and they're as dangerous to women as all other males. Disagreeing with that is femphobic IMHO.

But when TW are allowed in women's spaces, the spaces become mixed sex and it's a vile display of misogyny. So that's why TW are 'targeted', because they are invading spaces not made for them. If another group of males decided to infiltrate women's space, they'd also rightly be targeted.

Okay @DadJoke I don't need to make the point about male cleaners and male guards as others have already done so.

If someone is allowed to enter a single-sex space based on their gender ID and not on their biology then this is someone who does not belong in that single sex space. Their sex is not female/woman even if they feel like and want to be treated as a female/woman. The problem with your argument is that the Spanish Legionnaire self-IDing as female can use single sex spaces according to your preferred system. I cannot stop them. I do not assume that the risk from a transwoman is greater than that from any other male. It may well be less. But this change allows other men who may be known risks to enter protected spaces. It has happened and its not good.

I am an ethnic minority woman (not a muslim) and I looked up what the guidance is within this religion and found this from a site called IslamQA. First I asked about being in spaces with unrelated men (unsurprisingly not on unless the women outnumber the men) and then I looked up what is considered men (re transgender) ...

'First of all, it must be understood that ‘transgender’ is totally haram in Islam and hence, not permissible. This act, in reality, is changing the way Allah created a person, and showing displeasure with the gender which a person has created to be.
If Allah Has created a person to be a male, then he is a male, regardless of how he feels about himself, and in spite of the feminine manners, traits and hair style he may adopt. Thinking that he is a female, when he has been born a male, is no reason to want to change his sex or have an inclination to want to be, or behave as a female. This is not acceptable at all in Islam. A male who adopts the ways, pattern of conduct, dress and speech of a female is an effeminate person, who has been cursed by the Prophet (SAW). In this regard, Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) said, ‘The Prophet (SAW) cursed effeminate men (those who are assume the way of women), and those women who assume the ways of men. He said, ‘Turn them out of your houses’. (Sahih Al Bukhari 5856).

<SNIP as less relevant but same vein>

He must understand that Allah made him a male and he will always be a male until he dies. This is the decree of Allah for him. Trying to emulate and imitate a woman, and having a strong feeling and inclination to be like them, is totally Haram in Islam and will bring about Allah’s wrath and punishment.'

So having a transwoman in a space with a fundamentalist muslim woman is possibly worse than having a man in the space. At least as long as you outnumber the men its not forbidden.

There is push back against this and the law change in Pakistan tries to prevent discrimination. It is concerned with improving access and removing discrimination against three categories - intersex, eunuchs and trans people (listed in that order). https://www.senate.gov.pk/uploads/documents/1503334623_218.pdf It talks about access to public spaces - it does not talk about access to single sex spaces and AFAICT it would not permit this.

BTW I am not obsessed with bathrooms or changing rooms - you bring it up because I assume you think that is an argument you are strong in. In my ideal world men would not be a risk to women whatever the setting. Sadly this is not the case.

The male sex class take it too far. They punch 70 year old women, threaten with assault, show us anger

@DadJoke instead of seeing women who merely say no, who do not consent, as worth attacking. Maybe work on the males you have more in common with.

Tell men to stop being so aggressive and threatening and they can include everyone who is male, no matter the presentation.

I think this is a key question. What definition of woman includes women and tw but excludes transmen? the answer can't vebe based on gender identity because that would exclude vast numbers of women who don't have gender from being a woman which would be a shitty move. Persistently starting that TWAW without defining terms is patently unhelpful and more than a little irritating.

TW are only women if women doesnt mean human female.

Women's singles sex spaces are designed for human females. Because human females need and want space away from humans males.

The need for exclusively human female spaces exists regardless of whether men call themselves women or men, male or female.

Its irrelevant whether men see themselves as women or men, because it isnt their idea of themselves that creates the need for female only spaces.

Men declaring themselves women doesnt change anything about themselves, its only words. And it doesn't change anything about the need for single sex sevices and spaces.

@Gettingmadderallthetime so your view is that if a person with a religious belief wants to exclude another person from a space who is permitted to be there, their view should take priority? Does this apply to disabled, black and gay people, or just transgender people?

The idea that the handful of Muslim women who don't want to get changed in front of trans women would be happy to change with a bearded trans man is just laughable - because that's the other option.

Tw largely aren't permitted to be in womens spaces. Indeed any space which calls itself a female or women's space should exclude Tw because they're neither women nor female.

It's a better option than is currently on offer to women.