Talking about men with autogynephilia - AGPs

[Leafstamp]

Have just been checking the mumsnet guidelines and this is what they say on the subject:

Will you consider deleting posts that associate transgender people with autogynephila (AGP)?

This is something we'd look at on a case by case basis, though we'll definitely delete posts which generalise.

So, we should bear that in mind here.

I wondered how anyone can say for certain that a man who identifies as a woman is NOT an AGP.

I suppose if he is seeing a psychologist or similar HCP then that HCP may be able to give an opinion. But the fact of the matter is, none of the rest of the people that such a man came into contact with would know for sure if he is getting kicks out of dressing as a woman.

The Equality Act, through having Gender Reassignment as a protected characteristic has given protection to men with autogynephilia, hasn't it?

I know this is not a particularly new trail of thought for this board but I felt perhaps it needed a bit of an airing.

I think for me it’s mainly wrong because, as others have pointed out, it’s a fetish which relies on women being seen as inferior and therefore a man feminising himself as a deep shameful humiliation. A man who indulges in such a fetish is hardly likely to see women as his equals in the rest of his life, and will not support female equality, since if women were socially equal to men, there would be no reason to have the fetish.

@SomethingUniqueThisTime

Activities like dogging or flashing are not acceptable or legal, why therefore should certain behaviours linked with AGP be tolerated.

Having sex in public and public nudity, generally speaking, are not acceptable or legal. It makes no difference whether the person doing it is getting off on the shock it causes others, or just oblivious to them (and indeed the difference is not something you could possibly prove legally anyway).

What "behaviours linked with AGP" do you believe should not be tolerated? It's hard to consider this point without specifics. I can only think of behaviours that I believe are legally and social OK (like men choosing to wear dresses) and those that aren't or shouldn't be (like men insisting on being able to use womens' changing rooms). The internal psychological question of whether the man involved has AGP or is motivated by something else doesn't affect this, for me (and again, would be impossible to prove).

We had an interesting debate about this on a thread not too long ago, it was whether people felt like men shouldn't be allowed to wear women's clothes in public.

I agree with you that I don't think we should stop anyone wearing clothes in public as long as they're "decent", or not specific fetish wear (e.g. gimp man) but we should keep single sex spaces single sex.

Beware the debate got quite heated on that thread 😬

I have read the transwomen threads They do not reflect my experience.

Yes they won't reflect everyone's experience, but they are still a valid experience for many women unfortunately.

They are. Of course they are a valid experience.

Interestingly the police and courts do make distinctions when it comes to types of nudity - indecent exposure is defined as intention to scare or upset someone. During an investigation questions concerning state of arousal of the suspect will be part of the decision to prosecute. Someone having a discrete pee behind a bush when out walking is very unlikely to find themselves in court.

Courts also make decisions about an individual’s motivation when it comes to questions of murder or manslaughter.

I think we could all think of incidents where it would be clear whether an individual was aroused by their presentation to others in specific situations and clothing.

Society has all sorts of codes and expectations about what is acceptable behaviours, some of which are protected by laws and others by just perceived norms. I suspect if I turned up at work wearing an ultra short leather skirt with fishnet stockings as a 65 year old woman, both my co-workers and boss would have a conversation about appropriate work dress and lack of professionalism. As would masturbating in the toilets!

I believe in our clamour as a society to be progressive and understand the right of the individual to express themselves as they wish, we have forgotten that in reality we all need social rules and broadly agree what they are without fear of being perceived as bigoted. It’s complex but the majority of people know where those lines are. Unfortunately extreme gender expression has thrown these rules in to total disarray.

Moving on from the question of whether someone is indulging a fetish or has other reasons for presenting as trans and how hard it might be to know. The most simple solution is always, of course, to define protected spaces by sex rather than gender - be that toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, women’s refuges, or rape crisis centres. And provide alternative third spaces for those people uncomfortable with a sex-defined space.

This will ensure all are protected from people wanting to infiltrate a same sex space to feed their sexual gratification be that an AGP male or a predatory non-trans male seeking access to women.

I do remember regularly reading two things in problem pages (which I loved) in the eighties -

“I allowed my partner to take naked polaroids of me and now we’ve fallen out he’s threatening to show them to my family/his friends/workmates, what can I do?” - I used to boggle at how often this came up as I simply could not believe people consented to the photos or how their partner broached the subject in the first place. Now it’s been replaced by sex videos recorded on phones; it’s far more normalised for some people to record themselves having sex even with the risk of it being shared without consent.

The other was “I came home unexpectedly from shopping and found my 50 year old husband of 20 years dressed in my clothes and wearing full make up, he said it’s harmless and relaxes him, what should I do?” The account always had the husband promising to never repeat the behaviour etc. The wife was clearly traumatised and often questioning if their partner was actually gay. None of the women asked if he could be a secret transexual or if it was a paraphilia as almost no-one had any concept of AGP or transition at that time. I can’t remember what the most common response from the agony aunt was (weirdly).

I think there may have been far more males involved in this obvious AGP behaviour than we think, but because most would know of no way of taking things any further as there was no internet they would just push it down and never think they could progress.

Now the option is there they can give their wants free rein to move on with extending things all the way into the public forum and be celebrated for doing so. The repeated “doing” seems to feed the urge to take the next step because it’s available and allowed.

The concept of this kind of paraphilia is still weird enough for most (men)to discount as they can’t picture that desire in themselves and would rather think “well, they must really be born in the wrong body, if they are desperate enough to chop off their dick” and stop thinking that very unpleasant thought.

I knew my husband liked to dress in women's clothes because he told me about it when we first met. I don't hear many accounts like this.

He does not work in IT - this is something that seems to be regurgitated.

I don't completely understand it, I don't think he does either. It didn't "escalate" - another thing that seems to be trotted out as a fact.

He's a nice, kind man and I love him.

I don't completely understand it, I don't think he does either. It didn't "escalate" - another thing that seems to be trotted out as a fact.

That's what we all thought until we found out that it had.

What you and your husband do in your bedroom is your own business (and hopefully he keeps it there), but I would add two notes of caution:

1. You can never be sure it's not escalating behind your back. Cross-dressing is known to be comorbid with other paraphilias more often than not.
2. Plenty of women are married to "nice, kind men" who turn out to be cheaters, or to watch violent porn with no thought of whether the participants are trafficked, or to use prostitutes (ditto), or even to be paedophiles. (NB: I am not equating transsexualism or transvestism with paedophilia, for clarity.)

There is a balance to be found between loyalty and naivety.

I also object to trans widows collective experiences being reduced to "regurgitated" and "trotted out". It's a shame that a woman in a similar situation does not refer to our experience in sisterly terms, as we would always endeavour to do for hers.

Plenty of women are married to "nice, kind men" who turn out to be cheaters, or to watch violent porn with no thought of whether the participants are trafficked, or to use prostitutes (ditto), or even to be paedophiles. (NB: I am not equating transsexualism or transvestism with paedophilia, for clarity.)

Quite. If they hadn't appeared to be nice, we wouldn't have married them.

I think there's a difference in him being upfront about it from the start and people like TinselAngel who found out years later. Many women only find this stuff out by accident and feel rightly betrayed by the deception.

Also, it's great that you have a good relationship - that doesn't change the fact that for many men who cross dress it is a sexual fetish, and we are now being asked to accommodate and validate them in public spaces.

I think there's a difference in him being upfront about it from the start and people like TinselAngel who found out years later. Many women only find this stuff out by accident and feel rightly betrayed by the deception.

That's not strictly true for me actually. I knew before I married him and it escalated. When they claim they are being "up front" they are usually minimising.

He does not work in IT - this is something that seems to be regurgitated.

It's not universal but it is common. My DP anecdotally, a software engineer, has told me that he has met more MTF software engineers in the course of his career than he has female ones.

I completely agree, I get that. I was just trying to give a perspective I hadn't seen here. My situation might be unusual I guess so probably not much help.

I'm sorry TinselAngel.

This. For years women married to autogynephiles thought they were the only ones in the world going through what they were going through. Then Tinsel and others started talking about it — and suddenly they're not alone, and they have a name to put to their husband's behaviour. Such demeaning language you're using there, @TheWayThingsGo , to describe women sharing their experience.

I'm allowed to share my experience too. I have read these threads and I find a lot of the language upsetting and demeaning also.

I completely agree, I get that. I was just trying to give a perspective I hadn't seen here.

Would you consider your husband to be an autogynephile in the way say Debbie Hayton might describe it?

You find the way we refer to our ex husbands on a support thread on a feminist forum, "upsetting and demeaning"?

I'm allowed to share my experience too. I have read these threads and I find a lot of the language upsetting and demeaning also.

Has anyone said you're not allowed to share your experience?

I didn't question your experience, I made an observation on your language. This is, after all, the Feminsim: Sex and Gender board and most of us here are all too aware of the way women's experience is discounted.

You told me I was using demeaning language. I'm not interested in a fight. I am not trying to negate your experience. I only wanted to put my perspective, because I thought that was the point of discussing things. I will not try that again. All the best.