Talking about men with autogynephilia - AGPs

[Leafstamp]

Have just been checking the mumsnet guidelines and this is what they say on the subject:

Will you consider deleting posts that associate transgender people with autogynephila (AGP)?

This is something we'd look at on a case by case basis, though we'll definitely delete posts which generalise.

So, we should bear that in mind here.

I wondered how anyone can say for certain that a man who identifies as a woman is NOT an AGP.

I suppose if he is seeing a psychologist or similar HCP then that HCP may be able to give an opinion. But the fact of the matter is, none of the rest of the people that such a man came into contact with would know for sure if he is getting kicks out of dressing as a woman.

The Equality Act, through having Gender Reassignment as a protected characteristic has given protection to men with autogynephilia, hasn't it?

I know this is not a particularly new trail of thought for this board but I felt perhaps it needed a bit of an airing.

I agree OP, but unfortunately MN is trigger happy when it comes to deleting on this topic. It's one of the things we're supposed to pretend isn't happening and doesn't exist.

Meanwhile there are several TW who have admitted that they transitioned because of porn and that it is a fetish.

The Equality Act, through having Gender Reassignment as a protected characteristic has given protection to men with autogynephilia, hasn't it?

In regards to the EA, I think it's mischaracterised by TRAs that somehow gender ideology is protected by equality law. You see it used as a gotcha in their arguments sometimes.

But in fact Gender Reassignment is supposed to protect someone going through that process from being fired etc. Which I would totally agree with.

If your colleague Jim came into work one day calling himself Barbara, I don't think he should be fired, but nor do I think he should be allowed to used the women's toilets.

Yes, I think you're right. And thanks to the Equality Act Jim thinks he can compel colleagues to validate his paraphilia in a way that men with other paraphilias cannot.

IANAL and obviously it would depend on the precise facts of the case, but it just seems that, if only thanks to Stonewall, women now think that they must kowtow to Jim's demands and public displays.

"It's one of the things we're supposed to pretend isn't happening and doesn't exist."

Yeah, no, this definitely doesn't happen nor exist. 🙄🙄🙄

We’re not allowed to generalise and we’re not allowed to be specific 🤷‍♀️

So we allude to it by using FWR 'slang' and grammar-tortured posts…and we still get told off.

I don’t understand why we have to be kind to a group of men that despise and dehumanise women so much that they fetishise and roleplay the sexism women have to endure in male-dominated societies. It feels like a thumb on the scales to me 🤷‍♀️ but I do my best to function within the rules.

Can't help but wonder how long my screenshot reply with last before it's removed tbh - I have a weird feeling it will :S
I don't think it's broken guidelines?
I honestly can't tell at this point - It's not generalising to take screenshots from individual posters on another platform right? :S

We can surely generalise about all of the AGPs insofar as the shared characteristics they have by definition. What we can't do I suppose is suggest that all men who identify as women are AGPs.

And in terms of specifics, I presume we can specifically say that Hayton is an AGP seeing as he has admitted himself. (And has also said he doesn't mind what pronouns people use for him).

Personally I don’t think all men who identify as women are AGP. Some may be gay and end up transitioning because of internal or external homophobia. But really, who knows what motivates people to identify as the opposite sex, or as no sex at all?

I'd say most of them would be covered by one of the two possibilities you mention.

yes I think that's in line with Blanchard's work @duc748

We can surely generalise about all of the AGPs insofar as the shared characteristics they have bydefinition.

You would hope. Otherwise it would be like having to talk about diabetes without being able to say the bodies of people with diabetes do not produce or effectively utilise insulin.

The one time I received a warning from MN was because I was talking about AGP. I’m still not entirely sure how it can be discussed without breaking the rules.

The one time I received a warning from MN was because I was talking about AGP. I’m still not entirely sure how it can be discussed without breaking the rules.

Indeed. I get the sense they don't want us to discuss it at all, which is incredibly frustrating.

Personally I think it’s a very difficult topic to discuss anywhere without sounding ‘transphobic’ or sensationalising the risks to women and children.

I’m fairly upfront in my GC views with my family and close friends, but when I touch on the topic of AGP or fetishisation of ‘sexy woman’ stereotype clothing in transwomen I’m very aware it feels like an awkward conversation.
My DH who agrees with most of my views, usually shuts me down when I try to discuss AGP saying it is very rare/not worthy of consideration.

I honestly believe it is a very important part of GC discussions as without an awareness of the AGP subgroup of transwomen (particularly amongst TRAs) many people can’t always grasp all of the risks and fears that many women experience. I feel it’s often deliberately obscured and prevents more understanding towards non-AGP transpeople if we can’t openly discuss the issue.

Anyone who thinks this paraphilia is not the primary motivating factor behind a significant number of men “transitioning” has either not been paying attention to, or chooses to be wilfully blind to, one or more of the following pieces of evidence:

• The trans widows threads here and elsewhere
• The extremely repetitive pattern of “coming out” as a “TW” by straight, married, 50+ men - it’s as much of a standard formula as the infidelity “script” referred to on the Relationship board
• Posts on Twitter/X by those who gloat about it
• Posts on Reddit talking about “euphoria boners”
• Mainstream - not even specialised fetish/kink - porn sites, where “sissification” and cross-dressing are two of the most popular categories.

SomethingUnique, I can’t remember if it was Ray Blanchard or Alice Dreger but one of them described AGP as something like:

the love that would prefer you not speak its name.

My DH who agrees with most of my views, usually shuts me down when I try to discuss AGP saying it is very rare/not worthy of consideration.

I'm only guessing but your DH's response is because he is suffering from severe ick at the thought and wants to move away as quickly as possible.

My DH who agrees with most of my views, usually shuts me down when I try to discuss AGP saying it is very rare/not worthy of consideration.

I think this is not an uncommon response, because most of us don't really want to think about other people's sexual fetishes - it's an uncomfortable topic. To be fair, most of us here on FWR never wanted to have to delve into men's fetishes, until we realised that women at large are being compelled to participate in these fetishes, without our consent.

I honestly believe it is a very important part of GC discussions as without an awareness of the AGP subgroup of transwomen (particularly amongst TRAs) many people can’t always grasp all of the risks and fears that many women experience. I feel it’s often deliberately obscured and prevents more understanding towards non-AGP transpeople if we can’t openly discuss the issue.

Exactly. If you think about why the offer of third spaces was so harshly shouted down, it's because they want to be where women are. If the actual aim was simply 'to pee in peace', then a third space would have been a reasonable compromise.
Also, there are countries where men who wish to dress in feminine clothes are widely accepted - for example the Faʻafafine of Samoa. However, crucially they are not seen as women, and they do not get to access women's spaces.

Thanks for interesting posts, this is the kind of discourse I hoped would happen. Facts. We need to be able to discuss facts.

Anyone who thinks this paraphilia is not the primary motivating factor behind a significant number of men “transitioning” has either not been paying attention to, or chooses to be wilfully blind to, one or more of the following pieces of evidence

I do feel like this is something that everyone used to be aware of before trans became an identity and Stonewall tagged the T onto the LGB. We all recognised that SOME men (not a generalisation MN) who claim to be women got a sexual kick out of cross dressing. It didn’t mean that this was an excuse to harass these men but it did mean that we could at least be open about not wanting to share space with them and nobody would have taken issue with that. The (very successful) rebranding of trans by Stonewall et al was such a coup for this particular group of men. Now heterosexual middle-aged men who cross dress are viewed as being within the exact same category as 13 year old same sex attracted girls. If you can get people to believe that you can get them to believe anything. What amazes me is how easily people forget what they previously knew.

What amazes me is how easily people forget what they previously knew.

Yes. I think this has been one of the most shocking elements in all of this for me!

I know, it's bizarre - a very heterogenous group that is all lumped in together. The thing is, people are told that supporting anything trans is how you demonstrate you're a good person. And if you don't, you must therefore be a bad person. So there doesn't seem to be much examination done as to what motivates this movement.

And like you have said, old style cross dressers weren't fawned over in this way, they were sort of known about and mainly left alone, but seen rightly as men with a kink. Then it was sort of rebranded as a trans woman, and it's somehow something completely different.

Helen Joyce has written some articles online about autogynephilia, if people want to search for them. I don't think I'd be allowed to link them here.

Some quotes from her about AGP:
What is so unusual and destructive about this sexual desire and urge is that it requires everyone else to play along. That’s part of the fantasy. And that’s not true of sexual desires in general.
If you are a man who’s deepest sexual desire is that he is really a woman, then that man requires everybody, specifically women, to agree with him. And he doesn’t just want to cross dress, he wants to come into women’s only spaces because he wants to be in the place where his womanhood is validated. So that doesn’t just mean that he wants to use the women’s toilets and the women’s changing rooms and so on, because that’s convenient, it means he wants to use them for validation. He goes into them specifically.
They do all these things only women can do because that is what they get off on. And any woman who says sorry mate, you’re a man, not welcome, she’s striking a blow at the heart of his own self image and his erotic fantasy as well.

Their anger results from envy of women and resentment and not being accepted by women as one of them. They direct their ire at women because it is women who frustrate their desires. Men are largely irrelevant.

Clear as a bell from Helen as usual.

And for anyone wondering how this ideology has taken such a hold so quickly…who has traditionally held the power in the west, in the main? White, middle/upper class, middle aged men.

What’s the main demographic of the AGP? White, middle/upper class, middle aged men.

Teenage girls uncomfortable with their developing bodies in a porn-soaked world and little boys with homophobic parents are the human shields necessary to make an adult male erotic fetish acceptable in plain sight.

I do think that may be true. I don’t think he can comfortably imagine it really exists.
It’s taken him a while to understand the lived experiences of most women from childhood needing to modify their behaviour in order to stay safe from predatory men.