Talking about men with autogynephilia - AGPs

[Leafstamp]

Have just been checking the mumsnet guidelines and this is what they say on the subject:

Will you consider deleting posts that associate transgender people with autogynephila (AGP)?

This is something we'd look at on a case by case basis, though we'll definitely delete posts which generalise.

So, we should bear that in mind here.

I wondered how anyone can say for certain that a man who identifies as a woman is NOT an AGP.

I suppose if he is seeing a psychologist or similar HCP then that HCP may be able to give an opinion. But the fact of the matter is, none of the rest of the people that such a man came into contact with would know for sure if he is getting kicks out of dressing as a woman.

The Equality Act, through having Gender Reassignment as a protected characteristic has given protection to men with autogynephilia, hasn't it?

I know this is not a particularly new trail of thought for this board but I felt perhaps it needed a bit of an airing.

Sometimes, I think some men shut women down when we bring up these topics because they don’t want to know about what other men (for example the type of men that hurt women and children) get up to because it makes them feel uncomfortable but more importantly because it makes them feel guilty.

They want to be good men and don’t want to be associated in any way, even verbally, with bad men. A sort of ‘ignorance is bliss' or 'ignore it and it will go away' attitude. And a lot of them feel this way because, unlike the women trying to discuss certain types of negative male behaviour, these men haven’t had to negotiate their lives around these male behaviours in the ways women have.

I hope they don’t mean any harm by this instinctive rejection of uncomfortable topics but I wish I knew how to get them to discuss topics like these that need addressing by men as well as women. Brushing things under the carpet or declaring things too impolite for discussion isn’t getting women anywhere in combatting creeps, perverts and perpetrators of domestic violence.

It’s not our battle but I would be interested to know how non-AGP transpeople/non-binary feel about the hijacking of their needs to live peacefully in a very gendered world as ‘themselves’ by a group of people driven by their own sexual fetish.

A family member came out as trans a few years ago (40s male, married with children). I will not go into the many reasons he may have made that decision, as it is fairly standard fare (autistic, mental health issues, highly suggestible). However when he first transitioned (after obviously finding ‘support’ groups online) he presented himself in a very sexualised way - short skirts, fishnets, long flowing wigs and full make-up).
Now he presents in a much more normal female style, wearing pretty standard clothing, rarely wears make-up, comfortable shoes and so on. Still obviously male but dressed as many 40 year old women would. I feel that he was originally immersed in some sort of AGP world, and has now found a life that works for who he really wants to be.

I had a comment deleted on a "pronouns" thread where I pointed out some TW get a hard on when they hear female pronouns used about them.
This is openly admitted on other forums by TW themselves! But it got deleted here.
You just can't talk about it.

It’s not our battle but I would be interested to know how non-AGP transpeople/non-binary feel about the hijacking of their needs to live peacefully in a very gendered world as ‘themselves’ by a group of people driven by their own sexual fetish.

I know that for example Blair White who is a US based transwoman has spoken out against gender ideology and the antics of TRAs. However Blair is gay, and therefore would likely be classed under Blanchards typology as a homosexual transsexual - basically a very effeminate gay man who simply prefers to dress and present in a feminine way, but doesn't claim to be a woman. I believe Blair gets mega hate from the TRAs online.

I don’t understand why we can’t discuss it, MN have never clarified that as far as I can see.

Which is bizarre because AGP is a recognised paraphilia, as far as I know it’s in the most recent DSM. We can discuss voyeurism or flashing which - like other paraphilias - adversely affect other people because they often involve transgressing the boundaries of other people’s consent.

Some transwomen even admit to being AGPs.

So why is this topic treated like a third rail?

I believe some groups claim that it doesn't exist - the lovely WPATH for example tried to claim it's unscientific or something.
It basically doesn't look good for them wanting into women's spaces for fetish reasons, so their best defence is to claim that it isn't real.

I don't know what the various causes/reasons for being a transwoman are but I am fairly certain what the motivation for having a ham shank while wearing your sister's, mother's or wife's underwear is.

As a motivation, AGP has some significant harmful effects on women, particularly lesbians. The phenomenon of the cotton ceiling - where men who identify as women put pressure on lesbians to have sex with them - stems from the endorsement AGPs are driven to seek by being accepted as a lesbian by other lesbians. Men who identify as women and want sexual attention from men don't have to bully or pressure women for sexual attention.

BW has done some interesting videos recently talking to a psychologist about his childhood and how it might have affected his desire to transition. The direction seems to be, seriously abused - probably sexually but it's not discussed openly in the video - by the father, and left home at a very young age and completely reinvented himself in every possible way.

So not just a matter really of preferring to present in a feminine way.

I similarly read an interview recently with Buck Angel who said in recent years he's wondered whether he could have just lived as a butch lesbian, if he'd had the right help. At the time it just seemed completely necessary to be a man.

Absolutely this, if some of you haven't seen Jon Uhler's videos on this over at YouTube, please do! He's a psychologist who spent 15 years working with hard core sex offenders in prisons. He outlines the pathology of the fetish very very clearly in plain language. He's all about safeguarding women and children.
Let's just say I was appalled and am a tough Ultra as a result.

Great thread. It's vitally important that awareness of this is raised.
Totally agree with PPs that it's incredible that as a collective we've "forgotten" (reprogrammed following successful rainbow-bedecked gaslighting campaigns) what we already know on this subject. It's become a virtue signalling badge of honour to demonstrate in public that "I have realised that I was so prejudiced previously" etc.

I was talking to a male friend about it recently and sent him this essay, which came from another thread on Mumsnet:

https://archive.is/2pQIq

It's so well written. His response afterwards was "I'm shocked that I've never heard of this". He has a daughter and agrees wholeheartedly that it's important to maintain sex-segregated spaces. The reason we got on to this subject was because we were exploring the whole topic of gender identity. I introduced it much further down the line than other topics within the wider subject, and even then I did it tentatively. In previous experience, this is the point at which people (mostly men) that I have spoken to switch off and assume I've gone in to tin foil hat territory. What has worked for me is, after discussing the harms to children, particularly autistic girls, and some obvious unfairness (Isla Bryson, women's sports), I move on to the difference in beliefs between "sex is immutable" and "I have a gender identity". That part of the conversation takes a long time if I'm talking to liberal-leaning people. As a liberal-leaning person myself, I completely understand why. Depending on how quickly it moves on, I introduce this topic as being the most important one of all.
Obviously I'm not saying that's how everyone should introduce it, but I'm sharing in case it's useful.

My way of thinking is that if a man in his 40's/50's starts wearing women's clothes in public....and they are usually very sexualised women's clothes...the type actual women would get insulted for wearing usually, .... he's emboldened by the fact that this fetishisation in public has been made more acceptable to a point now...

That screams AGP to me.

He's living his kink out in the public domain, visiting women's spaces for his own gratification....and there's nothing we can do about it !! 😡😡

And it's happening more every day.

I was trying to talk to my friends about this recently. Has anybody estimated what proportion of mtf trans people have AGP?

Is that the same as the people that get turned on from being in a toilet cubicle next to women (for e.g)?

Many of the be kind women I know are completely unaware of this.

Back in the real world though it's just not really an issue, we have a lovely "them" person locally, completely accepted and they use the disabled toilet, problem solved. I have no idea on their internal motives for choosing women's clothing because they certainly don't "pass" as a woman but they are friendly, and nobody bats an eyelid at the pub though did see some teens giving them a hard time in Lidl once and the manager kicked the kids out. I'm pretty sure nobody would put themselves in that vulnerable position unless there was something very strong inside themselves motivating them.

Here’s Julie Bindel interviewing Ray Blanchard the man who came up with the categorisation of transsexual males.

https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/the-man-that-coined-the-term-autogynephilia

I'm pretty sure nobody would put themselves in that vulnerable position unless there was something very strong inside themselves motivating them.

Indeed. In the case of AGPs, it’s often the humiliation part of the fetish.

There are two main reasons why this is such an unpleasant paraphilia: 1) is the nonconsensual co-opting of strangers that has been mentioned above; 2) is the utter misogyny at its core. For many, if not most, of the men involved, it is essentially a humiliation fetish, and the reason it plays out as crossdressing is because to their mind there is nothing more humiliating and pathetic than being a woman.

Again, you don’t have to take my word for it. Spend some time on a site like Reddit, Swinging Heaven or BDSMLR looking at CD/“sissy” material and you’ll see it in men’s own words - but be warned, it’s not a pleasant thing to research and you need a strong stomach.

Many women really have no idea of the lengths some men will go to in order to satisfy their sex drive.

From what I’ve read there are multiple sub categories.

Nowadays the men who would once have been open about their sexual fetish now deny that this is what motivates them so it is hard to carry out research.

I think this denial has been incredibly successful leading to the idea that AGP has been “debunked” as a concept.

This is dangerous for society. We’ve seen recently NHS hospitals promoting the idea that a man’s drug-induced “breast milk” is as good or better quality than a woman’s. In general the debate in the msm centred around the quality of the milk rather than focussing on the welfare of the child. There was virtually no discussion about the fact that there is a whole community of men whose fetish centres around breasts and breastfeeding and by encouraging men to “feed” babies it is likely to place babies at risk of harm if they end up being parented by one of these men. Who would be able to challenge what they perceived to be abuse? A professional would risk losing their livelihood. It’s a complete safeguarding loophole.

Take this article by the Daily Mail from 2 days ago. The article discusses in detail the potential health impacts to the child from receiving breast milk from a man.

However there is zero discussion on the potential psychological impact that being breastfed by a man might have on a child and the potential for babies to be exploited by men whose sexual fetish involves breasts and breastfeeding. Surely this should be the primary concern when health services consider whether or not to encourage this practice. Instead it is not taken into account at all. And woe betide the nurse or social worker who raises a concern in a case like this.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13210355/amp/Proof-trans-women-breastfeed-not-replacement.html

I think the fact that paraphilias cluster and are also associated with personality disorders is an essential part of why this information needs to be in the public domain.

I can understand where you’re coming from @mitogoshi . I’ve met a few people who are transitioning, one way or another, and they’ve also been harmless, so far as I can tell.

But the problem is that the legal changes activists are demanding are not remotely reasonable. They want laws such as self-ID which has the potential to be misused by the group of men affected by the conditions in my first paragraph. Such laws will give a green light to men with paraphilias such as exhibitionism to move into women’s spaces and give them unprecedented access.

”Most of them are reasonable” is not a defence that stands up to scrutiny when you are introducing a law that effectively removes women’s right to single sex spaces, opening them up to some of the most predatory men.

@SoundTheSirens Teenage girls uncomfortable with their developing bodies in a porn-soaked world and little boys with homophobic parents are the human shields necessary to make an adult male erotic fetish acceptable in plain sight.

just highlighting this really important point - when well-meaning people unthinkingly talk about a single “LGBTQ+ community” I really want to ask them exactly what the different parts of this “community” have in common. Human shields is absolutely right.

Has anybody estimated what proportion of mtf trans people have AGP?

I read some great stuff by Aaron Terrell (I think) on this. I will try and dig it out. From memory the information that was given said it was 75%.
I bookmarked it on X before I realised that I have no way of searching through bookmarks.. it's very needle in haystack unfortunately.

However, to add a bit of balance I saw a thread on X where this person told Ritchie Heron that he had AGP. Ritchie gave it all the credence it deserved (none) and called it out for the nonsense it was. Ritchie is a gay man who got pulled in to believing he was trans due to his own self-declared fear of being gay. I'll also see if I can find this thread. Aaron has also said that some transmen have autoandrophilia. Personally I think this assertion needs more scrutiny but is an interesting idea: it would be helpful to understand more about the influence of both anime/fan fic on this and the increased libido that comes with testosterone. Helena (detransitioner) has spoken brilliantly about this, particularly on an interview with another lady and Benjamin Boyce.

Found it. Yes, Aaron Terrell. Co-founder of GD Alliance. This is the page that references the 75% figure.

https://www.genderdysphoriaalliance.com/education

I’d say that some drag queens also fall into this category, the ones who choose names with sexual and often misogynistic names. You have to wonder at some of the motivations for DQSTs when it is not just a man in lippy and a frock reading a story. I’m not totally convinced some DQs are just about promoting inclusion.

Couldn't find the Ritchie Heron and Aaron Terrell conversation on X. Suffice to say it was bizarre. I only referenced it for balance because it's important to be clear (for the purposes of staying within the guidelines on this important thread) that the 75% figure could be contested if someone challenged the credulity of the witness.

Here is the video I mentioned which links (albeit indirectly) to the related topic of autoandrophilia. The discussion between the two ladies on the impact on the self of fan fic is particularly interesting:

@mitogoshi, the ‘them’ you describe might not have AGP. If he is satisfied with using the disabled facilities rather than the women’s, that suggests he is perhaps not motivated by a fetish. (I’m not suggesting people without disabilities should use the disabled facilities though).

As for ‘in the real world’… if you have a read through the transwidows threads, you’ll see that there are plenty of fetishistic men out here in the real world, damaging their relationships with their wives and children, and quite possibly causing offence to others around them with their behaviour.