Jon Ronson and Adam Buxton

[WarriorN]

I'm astounded at this "bonus episode" of "and things fell apart."

Absolutely everything Glinner has said has been proven.

This is a twitter link, I imagine it's on bbc sounds

x.com/glinner/status/1769152705333699000?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

When I said "It is very hard to know how to respond to someone who is caught up in one extreme version of the truth and won't hear or see another side.

What is this extreme version of truth you think GL is peddling though? You didn't answer any of OldCrone's questions - these are the assertions GL is making, the ones that on Twitter at least Jon Ronson has been critical of. Which of those assertions is not the truth?

I also don't understand this because if that is an accusation aimed at GL (that he won't see an alternative version of the 'truth'), couldn't you accuse AB and JR of precisely the same? So it's not as though there's one side which is flexible in its thinking and able to see the issue from every side and one that is not. The argument just seems contradictory in itself.

*I was referring to any culture wars type issue. Neither party is going to convince "the other side" of their position.

This is the issue though, it should absolutely not be classed as a part of the 'culture wars.' It's not part of politics. It's primarily about medicine. Medicine is supposed to be evidence based.

It's about medical evidence - or lack of.

A Perceived culture war spirals from this basic premise as the concept of changing sex impacts on legal structures, which affects women and girls across society.

Ronson had also set up a straw man from the outset by linking it all to a homophobic attack which really muddied the whole debate.

Sorry you've lost me. What homophobic attack?

Of course the trans debate is a culture wars debate. Both sides are entrenched. It's being used to make political capital and has tentacles into loads of other culture wars debates too. Listen to "The Witchcraft Trials of JK Rowling".

Oh I get it now you are talking about the Pulse Nightclub/litter tray episode.

I'm talking about the recent bonus episode so we are at cross purposes.

That one was good I thought. None of the people he spoke to came out of it well apart from the teacher with the cat litter in the classroom.

It did show why it was a culture war issue - that the trans identifying teens mum had been instrumental in the "don't say gay" law. But then it's the US. Quite different to the UK.

Incidentally while looking it up I found this showing trans people also aren't happy about it. Which suggests he's probably doing a good job of being impartial 😂

https://www.reddit.com/r/KnowledgeFight/comments/193k1qx/i_really_hope_jordan_challenges_ronson_on_the/

All I was asking you was what conspiracy theories you thought were connected with gender ideology. Not particularly to do with what those 3 men were discussing between themselves.

You said "His behaviour on twitter and the fact his wife divorced him over this suggests he went from being a campaigner on a topic into being obsessed with it and potentially sucked into related conspiracy theories."

This implies that you think there are conspiracy theories related to campaigning against genderism. What are they? Can you list some of them?

No. It implies exactly what I said: I think he believed some crazy shit outside what most people believe which is why his friends and family were concerned.

I'm not him, his wife or any of his friends so I wouldn't know what things he said that concerned people.

I did just read one of his tweets where he said Jon Ronson was in a cult, and and article where JR says GL tweets him all the time including on Xmas day, even though JR has asked him not to. Which doesn't seem like the actions of a "victim".

So without any evidence at all, you have decided that "he believed some crazy shit outside what most people believe". You don't know what the crazy shit was but for reasons known only to yourself you think this must have happened.

Why do you think that "crazy shit" must have been involved? Do you not think it possible that someone might become quite obsessed with something without necessarily believing "crazy shit" which isn't true? Particularly when it comes to genderism, because there is so much "crazy shit" which is true.

You are doing a lot of he said, she said, they said, blah blah conspiracy theories, i think he believed crazy shit, he went down rabbit holes blah blah - and when questioned we get this

I'm not him, his wife or any of his friends so I wouldn't know what things he said that concerned people.

😂😂 Is this another "we just don't know" moment?

Im getting tired of people commenting just to argue for the sake of it. It's actually very boring. Bring receipts.

This is from GL

‘Over the last 5 years I've been involved in the fight against gender identity ideology and its potentially pernicious effect on: (1) women’s hard-won rights and spaces; (2) the rights of lesbians and gay men to be same-sex attracted; and (3) vulnerable children, who are being unnecessarily medicalised and pushed into irreversible surgeries.’

Is that crazy shit and conspiracy?

Which part?

In fact isn’t it just adding to the SM insults GL faces?

Which conspiracy theories are these that you are referring to exactly?

I think it shows how SM works quite well.

A poster repeats and amplifies speculation due to liking who said what, without foundation and without checking what the person they are talking about actually writes

OK I'll try framing it another way. Hypothesis: Graham Linehan believes anti LGBT conspiracy theories, like trans people are all groomers.

Description of conspiracy theory:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/05/the-long-sordid-history-of-the-gay-conspiracy-theory.html

Evidence for:

1. friends and family have raises concerns about it
2. his wife divorced him over it
3. his language on twitter is similar to recognised conspiracy theories (e.g. repeated references to "groomers" and "enablers"
4. his behaviour fits some of the characteristics of people who believe conspiracy theories, namely his view of himself as a crusading hero against dark forces that only the enlightened truly know about.

Evidence against:

1. there are lots of people equally concerned about trans gender issues
2. there appears to be a higher than average number of trans paedophiles so he could be using sloppy language rather than conspiracy language.
3. all his fans on twitter agree with him.

My opinion is there is enough evidence for, for me to not discount Ronson/ Buxton as bullies but instead believe their perspective that they lost their friend down a rabbit hole.

YMMV which is fine. I know there are plenty of posters on here who also believe that trans people are organised groomers, stonewall has captured public bodies and they are busily "transing" kids.

I believe ROGD is a problem and there has been over medicalisation and harm done as a result but I don't believe it was intentional, I think it was misguided and accidental. The attribution of organised intent by some elites for nefarious purposes is what makes elements of what people believe a conspiracy theory.

I actually was more sympathetic to Linehan until I went and looked at his twitter and saw what he writes and how much he tweets at Ronson (and encourages others to do likewise), even when he's been asked to stop and is getting no response.

It is not very pleasant behaviour and not the behaviour of someone who is behaving rationally and respecting other adults right to have a boundary.

Like this:
https://twitter.com/Glinner/status/1769025416361107909

"All these MPs want to hurt kids"

No I am 100% sure they don't want to hurt kids. I find that a disgusting allegation to make about people for just doing their job. And if he believes that - it's because he believes conspiracy theories about MPs being brainwashed by an evil elite....🤦‍♀️

Loads of people tag others when they’ve been asked to stop. A few on here in fact ;

Mn you can’t do much but Twitter isn’t there a block function

As for the rest no it doesn’t show he believes in crazy shit or conspiracy OTH genderism is far fetched in the first place

It looks like the do something posts have disappeared

Adam Buxton is the guest on Louis Theroux's latest episode, apparently 'problematic artists' and the culture wars so it seems to be the hot topic du jour for the chin-stroking 'cis' white male podcast set.

Theroux of course last heard trying to make a fool out of Germaine Greer (there was a thread here a few weeks back).

I don't use Spotify so if anyone listens it will be interesting to see what transpires.

I don't believe you don't understand the rhetorical technique of hyperbole.

In fact you seem to be using it in your own post.

The thing is Adam, these MPs with all their available resources and staff are NOT doing their job properly. That's the whole fucking problem.

Surely being obsessed with anything is unhealthy, even if it is a just cause.

If my husband could talk of nothing else then I'd probably leave to even if I agreed with him.

Lots of people get divorced for lots of reasons.

They talked about rumours around bowie having sex with children. Theroux said its possible to separate the artist from the work and he still enjoys Michael Jackson and R kelly even though he knows of how abusive they were.

So the message im getting from the podcast boys network is: sex abuse - still possible to earn money, saying children cannot consent to PB - we cant even say his name.

AdamRyan · Today 11:41

OK I'll try framing it another way. Hypothesis: Graham Linehan believes anti LGBT conspiracy theories, like trans people are all groomers.

What has that got to do with the LGB? Nothing.

Can you provide any evidence to support your claim that Linehan thinks that "all" trans people are groomers?

They talked about rumours around bowie having sex with children. Theroux said it's possible to separate the artist from the work and he still enjoys Michael Jackson and R kelly even though he knows of how abusive they were.

So the message im getting from the podcast boys network is: sex abuse - still possible to earn money, saying children cannot consent to PB - we cant even say his name.

Fuckin hell