Jon Ronson and Adam Buxton

[WarriorN]

I'm astounded at this "bonus episode" of "and things fell apart."

Absolutely everything Glinner has said has been proven.

This is a twitter link, I imagine it's on bbc sounds

x.com/glinner/status/1769152705333699000?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Some posters on this thread are so incredibly disingenuous. I'm amazed, as always, at the patience shown by the majority.

His behaviour on twitter and the fact his wife divorced him over this suggests he went from being a campaigner on a topic into being obsessed with it and potentially sucked into related conspiracy theories.

Wouldn't you be 'obsessed' about something which destroyed your livelihood and threatened your family? Wouldn't anyone? And I'd like to hear more about these conspiracy theories, what are those?

It is very hard to know how to respond to someone who is caught up in one extreme version of the truth and won't hear or see another side.

There are no versions of the truth. The truth is the truth. You can have opinion, but there's only one truth. I'd add the Ricky Gervais quote here but I'm too lazy to look for it.

I profoundly disagree with the idea that there are no winners!

Most countries in the Western world now struggle to say what a woman is.

Most medical practice for young people is operate/medicate now talk later.

Most professional people have to choose their salary and silence over reality.

Most women have lost their right to single sex space, single sex sport, single sex rape crisis centers and so on.

There are very clear winners and they are not of the born female kind.

By using the law and the courts to protect our rights. - But that is not what is happening is it? We are using the law and the courts to claw back some of our rights.

Wouldn't you be 'obsessed' about something which destroyed your livelihood and threatened your family?

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

And I'd like to hear more about these conspiracy theories, what are those?
Listen to the Mikki Willis and the cat litter boxes episodes for examples.

The truth is the truth.
No. On most topics, perception is subjective, and perception is reality. We are really getting into philosophy here but "the truth" is not a simple concept and it's almost impossible to prove "the truth". Or you can do is disprove certain hypotheses.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Women don’t have to do much to attract abuse, violence and threats, all they need to do is say no.

Maybe the same thing happened to GL. There’s certainly plenty of evidence some people are abusive to anyone saying no.

I think most people are doing something. I have contributed to crowdfunders and written to our local labour parliamentary candidate. That's since starting following the MN board a couple of weeks ago. I understand what you mean about an echo chamber but for me it has been a real relief to find out what campaigns are happening and to understand what has been happening for example with puberty blockers or men in women's prisons. My main interest is in policies not individuals so I'm not going to have heated debates in real life.

I'm amused at the idea that posters on here don't do things in real life to challenge GI. It really couldn't be further from the truth. And I don't count 'shouting at someone on Twitter' as part of that.

'Self congratulatory echo chamber' is also amusing. There was a fly by TRA poster posting recently on multiple threads who said outright that they weren't looking at evidence and wouldn't be changing their mind, no matter what happened and were happy to stay in their own echo chamber of misinformation and lack of intellectual curiosity. Where ever they hang out is definitely an echo chamber of foolishness.

There’s also the ‘GC women are as bad’

It reminds me of the ‘both sides’ claim when the 70 year old was punched woman in the face. What was she thinking getting punched like that 😳

Im i the only one who thinks it odd that the bbc paid two men to gossip about someone who spoke up about PB in the week the government has placed restrictions on the use of PB. And people are nodding along going 'yes, glinner was obsessed, and MN is an echo chamber'.

Dont you feel a tiny bit manipulated?

Very much so. Peak patriarchy

Not at all because the name of the person and the topic that the person had "gone down the rabbit hole" on wasn't mentioned. You would only know if you already knew.

I think making connections between the programme being broadcast and the PB announcement is reaching a bit too. There is some trans relevant news every week so you could say that whenever it was released.

It was also only a small bit of the interview. A lot of the rest of it was very interesting.

I have no objection to them talking about what they wish on their own podcast, however listeners are allowed to disagree or give our opinion on it - that's the nature of public discussion.

If they didn't want people commenting on what they said, then why say it publicly? For all your protestations, people who are aware of this issue would absolutely know it was GL they were discussing.

Their faux concern about him isn't fooling many people.

Seriously which came first? Again, nice victim blaming.

And no, there is only one truth. Men aren't women. Humans can't change sex. Puberty blockers aren't a pause button. Middle class middle aged white males are not the most marginalised and vulnerable™ people of all. All of these are facts, they're not perceptions,they are true. This is not an abstract discussion, these are provable facts.

Worth noting that the conspiracy theories / right wing bigotry accusations have really ramped up since the NHS banned puberty blockers for children. Lots of accusations spamming a number of threads from some posters.

Maybe a coincidence? Advanced Search (if anyone can be bothered) is always illuminating.

When I said "It is very hard to know how to respond to someone who is caught up in one extreme version of the truth and won't hear or see another side. I think that's why AB said an interview would be a "zero sum game"." I wasn't necessarily referring to the trans debate -I was referring to any culture wars type issue. Neither party is going to convince "the other side" of their position.

It's the same in all these debates. Are vaccines harmless? Absolutely not, some people suffer horrendous vaccine related side effects. Am I an anti-vaxxer? No I'm not. I'm also not going to expend my energy arguing why an antivaxxer's conspiracy theories are wrong.

People are losing family members and friends to these "Internet rabbit holes" and that's really sad. That's what AB and JR were talking about. Not the person or the topic, not whether they were right or wrong. But about losing a friend because they'd got obsessed.

www.france24.com/en/europe/20211001-i-feel-like-i-ve-lost-him-families-torn-apart-by-conspiracy-theories

Yes I’ve noticed a change since this announcement

Different put downs and accusations included

So what do you think is a conspiracy theory?

Is it a conspiracy theory that some violent male criminals are being reported as female in the press and recorded as female in crime statistics?

Is it a conspiracy theory that large numbers of children are now identifying as transgender and if they're really unlucky, being put on a medical pathway destroying their fertility and their future health?

Is it a conspiracy theory that men have sometimes been placed in women's prisons because they identify as transgender?

Is it a conspiracy theory that some men identify as women and are then allowed to compete in women's sports?

There's been a change on social media too in the exact way you suggest. The final, dare I say shrill, protests from desperate people who hate the fact that their poisoned ideology is being exposed to the light.

'I wouldn't say it because I'm very nice, but I hear that lots of people say you smell and everyone hates you'.

'I agree with you of course, but isn't it a shame so many people talk about how evil/smelly/hateful you are'. Etc.

Indeed - and it's testament to women (and men) on here and taking action in all the organisations that have emerged to fight this dreadful abuse of children and women the world over
It's always amusing to see a few posters frantically googling to try to equate knowing that sex is binary, that transitioning children is abusive and that men claiming to be women shouldn't be in women's sport, showers, hospital wards etc, with flat earthers. 😂

😂😂
It also derails threads - so I won't comment any further and will leave others to discuss Jon Ronson and Adam Buxton

Ummm @adamryan same first name as Adam Buxton! Is it you Adam?! Sorry to ask. On truth being entirely subjective, I think maybe you need to have another think. There is a thing called situated knowledge where our perspective is likely to differ depending on our social position but that's not quite the same as saying there is no such thing as objective fact. Sex as a binary is an objective fact - as is the fact that the way in which men and women interpret the world may differ, as we have different experiences. This amounts to a degree of subjectivity but that is not the same thing as saying there is no such thing as truth. That is taking post-modernism to its natural and absurd limit (see: Donald Trump).

Adam Buxton and JR as well? Ffs. Are they blind?

I don't know because I don't know what GL said to JR and AB!
They said he'd gone too far down a rabbit hole to come back. It's reported that's why he divorced and family are concerned about him. That's all consistent with someone who has gone outside the norms of campaigning. That's all I'm saying.

Thats never what I was referring to. I'm just going to C&P what I said to another poster:
When I said "It is very hard to know how to respond to someone who is caught up in one extreme version of the truth and won't hear or see another side. I think that's why AB said an interview would be a "zero sum game"." I wasn't necessarily referring to the trans debate -I was referring to any culture wars type issue. Neither party is going to convince "the other side" of their position.